7 ms·

Coding Up an IoT PCB Design

63 points by underpickled 4y ago

MichaelZuo 4y ago
Seems really cool. As a sidenote I think one day customizing the PCB for your devices will likely be seen as the ultimate feature for enthusiasts. For example: Why carry around circuity to convert multiple voltages in your phone if you can make sure you’ll only ever use a single, standard, voltage charger with it? Or, reserve some extra spaces on the PCB for a future drop-in RAM upgrade on your laptop.
- DHaldane 4y ago
  I think that's definitely the future - the framework laptop and the steam deck is proving this out a bit. Hopefully we can get more and more customization on these open(ish) platforms.
- mhh__ 4y ago
  Sounds like a total nightmare for an engineer. You now have to deal with whatever ram chip bubba got off eBay. Also circuit boards for thing you'll actually want to play with have more layers than you have fingers on at least one hand, you can't just chop them up willy nilly.
rock_hard 4y ago
https://flux.ai https://flux.ai provides a similar module based approach to design It doesn’t just cover schematic design but also PCB layout. The later which I am not sure Jitx can do
- polalavik 4y ago
  Maybe it’s just me, but I found flux to be poorly documented, incredibly slow, and I find their landing page marketing a bit misleading. They almost imply you can simulate microcontroller behavior + other circuitry all on their tool, which would be an enormous undertaking. It’s what led me to sign up. But in the end it’s just a tool that barely makes any sense. The learning curve for their simulator assumes hardware folks are going to spend hours figuring out how to code up the sim instead of graphically laying out an LTSpice sim and hitting run.
  - rock_hard 4y ago
    Yeah, it’s def early days and it’s still in beta But the team has been moving extremely fast on things like performance, tutorials and onboarding classes and so on Btw: you can absolutely also just graphically layout your sim…that’s a common misunderstanding I think
- mhh__ 4y ago
  Trying to be a modern techy company while also having one of those please message us popups is a confusing brand image.
polishdude20 4y ago
One thing that's a pain I've encountered when designing my own PCBs is having to figure out, route, add and source bypass capacitors. Each chips you use needs them nearby, usually the datasheet specifies the type and capacitance. It would be nice to have either community premade functional blocks that include these as well as links to digikey for sourcing. Things get a bit more complicated when you start using switching power supplies and you need to include a specific inductor, multiple caps and resistors all arranged in an optimal way specified by the datasheet. Those would be awesome to have functional PCB blocks for.
- analog31 4y ago
  Something I've noticed is that the demand for "vendor supplied libraries" has only slowly trickled down from the microcontroller (MCU) world. I've been playing with MCU's for going on 3 decades now. At first, you were lucky if an expensive commercial assembler supported your target chip. Then some vendors came out with free assemblers. It quickly got to the point where a MCU stood little chance in the market if the vendor didn't serve up a toolchain for it, starting with assembly, but quickly demanding C. Then, on top of just the C compiler, folks started to demand libraries to support the chip specific hardware modules. Going one step further, today I wouldn't think of using a MCU that was not available on a development board (no BGA soldering for me) and supported by Arduino. I think PCB designers will come up to speed on this, but it will take time. There are some not insignificant issues. One is that your favorite distributor runs out of the component that's spec'd in the library layout, and you have to scramble. I have a tiny side business making an electronic gadget, and I've had to make multiple substitutions to keep my business running. Bless you, Octopart. ;-)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - polishdude20 4y ago
    I wonder if there some way of specifying the important properties of the part, say the voltage rating, capacitance, etc of a capacitor, and have it choose the best capacitor from digikey or if sold out, the next best and do that all automatically. You can even specify a marking in the PCB like C6 and have the digikey BOM reference that so your little parts bag will have that printed when it arrives.
evancox100 4y ago
Makes me wonder how Verilog isn’t used as a netlist format for PCB schematics. It’s used all the time as an interchange format for netlists from synthesis to APR, netlists of analog schematics, etc. Could just as easily be deployed to board schematics.
- DHaldane 4y ago
  It's totally valid as a netlist for PCB schematics. Some folks have crammed PCB components through a pure verilog tool chain. But it turns out that 'a standard way to type out a netlist' is not the main thing an electrical designer needs from a language to be productive.
- mercurywells 4y ago
  VHDL has been used for design and simulation of boards (by myself and others).
Namidairo 4y ago
I've always been a little amused when I see an entire ESP32/ESP8266 or similar module just sitting on top of boards instead of being a part of it. I presume it's cost/complexity, but it's a weird thing that ends up as a common solution.
- picture 4y ago
  There are some reasonable reasons, like how it may speed up passing regulations. I believe RPi used some integrated WiFi modules that had certification done separately. And yeah, there's a lot of passives in those modules that I would not want to manually assemble
- svnt 4y ago
  The search term you want is modular certification. The volumes necessary to justify the cost, time, risk, and specialized skill set necessary to achieve both regulatory and standards certification of a WiFi device are significant.
- ranger_danger 4y ago
  Cost. You can easily get the premade ESP8266 boards for a quarter at scale. Laying out your own design for an ESP32 costs a lot more in time that's unnecessary usually.
- underpickled 4y ago
  If you're referring to the module on those boards, I can tell you it's because the actual IC was impossible to source. Only modules were readily available.
tapatio 4y ago
:vomit:
kayson 4y ago
The core ideas here are cool, but switching from a symbolic, schematic based approach to code seems insane for what amounts to strictly analog/RF design. In integrated circuit design, "modules", parametric components, and bulk connections are standard practice in our schematics. We can also integrate this/use the same techniques with relatively high performance layouts. There's no reason the same couldn't be used for PCBs, and I'm honestly a little surprised that those features don't exist given that the only two major IC design software companies also make PCB design software. I've mostly done analog IC design, but I've also done a not insignificant amount of verliog/vhdl, programming, infra as code, and pcb design. I can't pin point exactly why, but I just can't see how you accomplish the same thing visually and/or information ally with code as you can a graphical schematic.
- bb88 4y ago
  There was a talk at Kicon that touched on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErQYI2A36M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErQYI2A36M At some point for large enough designs, it's hard to validate that pins match up to signals. Though for small designs I think you're right.
  - deaddabe 4y ago
    This talk was impressive. Especially repeating parts and even using machine learning to optimize values of resistors. TL;DW the tool is named Skidl ans uses Python to generate net lists for KiCAD. https://github.com/devbisme/skidl https://github.com/devbisme/skidl
    - welterde 4y ago
      So far I have only used skidl for a few small projects. One project where it worked really well was in creating the schematic for backplanes, which is normally kinda tedious - especially if one has to create multiple variants with different slot numbers.
    - ris 4y ago
      > chooses an imperative language to define circuit topologies hmm.. maybe that's ok if they don't go too overboard and encourage a functional style > uses & as an in-place, mutating operator that's it, I'm out of here
teleforce 4y ago
I think software-defined (customized) hardware programming is the future whether it is in the form of HaaS or not. The JITX company mentioned in the article is a YC startup trying to automate the electronics design part with AI. The company is using a new L. B. Stanza programming language created as one of the co-founders Ph.D thesis [1]. If you want to learn on embedded system design this is a recently released book with an accompanying open source hardware design described in the book [2],[3]. [1]http://lbstanza.org/ http://lbstanza.org/ [2]https://us.artechhouse.com/mobile/A-Hands-On-Guide-to-Designing-Embedded-Systems-P2204.aspx https://us.artechhouse.com/mobile/A-Hands-On-Guide-to-Design... [3]https://www.eejournal.com/article/a-hands-on-guide-to-designing-embedded-systems/ https://www.eejournal.com/article/a-hands-on-guide-to-design...

63 points by underpickled 4y ago

Seems really cool. As a sidenote I think one day customizing the PCB for your devices will likely be seen as the ultimate feature for enthusiasts. For example: Why carry around circuity to convert multiple voltages in your phone if you can make sure you’ll only ever use a single, standard, voltage charger with it? Or, reserve some extra spaces on the PCB for a future drop-in RAM upgrade on your laptop.

DHaldane 4y ago
I think that's definitely the future - the framework laptop and the steam deck is proving this out a bit. Hopefully we can get more and more customization on these open(ish) platforms.
mhh__ 4y ago
Sounds like a total nightmare for an engineer. You now have to deal with whatever ram chip bubba got off eBay. Also circuit boards for thing you'll actually want to play with have more layers than you have fingers on at least one hand, you can't just chop them up willy nilly.

rock_hard 4y ago

https://flux.ai https://flux.ai provides a similar module based approach to design It doesn’t just cover schematic design but also PCB layout. The later which I am not sure Jitx can do

polalavik 4y ago
Maybe it’s just me, but I found flux to be poorly documented, incredibly slow, and I find their landing page marketing a bit misleading. They almost imply you can simulate microcontroller behavior + other circuitry all on their tool, which would be an enormous undertaking. It’s what led me to sign up. But in the end it’s just a tool that barely makes any sense. The learning curve for their simulator assumes hardware folks are going to spend hours figuring out how to code up the sim instead of graphically laying out an LTSpice sim and hitting run.
- rock_hard 4y ago
  Yeah, it’s def early days and it’s still in beta But the team has been moving extremely fast on things like performance, tutorials and onboarding classes and so on Btw: you can absolutely also just graphically layout your sim…that’s a common misunderstanding I think
mhh__ 4y ago
Trying to be a modern techy company while also having one of those please message us popups is a confusing brand image.

polishdude20 4y ago

One thing that's a pain I've encountered when designing my own PCBs is having to figure out, route, add and source bypass capacitors. Each chips you use needs them nearby, usually the datasheet specifies the type and capacitance. It would be nice to have either community premade functional blocks that include these as well as links to digikey for sourcing. Things get a bit more complicated when you start using switching power supplies and you need to include a specific inductor, multiple caps and resistors all arranged in an optimal way specified by the datasheet. Those would be awesome to have functional PCB blocks for.

analog31 4y ago
Something I've noticed is that the demand for "vendor supplied libraries" has only slowly trickled down from the microcontroller (MCU) world. I've been playing with MCU's for going on 3 decades now. At first, you were lucky if an expensive commercial assembler supported your target chip. Then some vendors came out with free assemblers. It quickly got to the point where a MCU stood little chance in the market if the vendor didn't serve up a toolchain for it, starting with assembly, but quickly demanding C. Then, on top of just the C compiler, folks started to demand libraries to support the chip specific hardware modules. Going one step further, today I wouldn't think of using a MCU that was not available on a development board (no BGA soldering for me) and supported by Arduino. I think PCB designers will come up to speed on this, but it will take time. There are some not insignificant issues. One is that your favorite distributor runs out of the component that's spec'd in the library layout, and you have to scramble. I have a tiny side business making an electronic gadget, and I've had to make multiple substitutions to keep my business running. Bless you, Octopart. ;-)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- polishdude20 4y ago
  I wonder if there some way of specifying the important properties of the part, say the voltage rating, capacitance, etc of a capacitor, and have it choose the best capacitor from digikey or if sold out, the next best and do that all automatically. You can even specify a marking in the PCB like C6 and have the digikey BOM reference that so your little parts bag will have that printed when it arrives.

evancox100 4y ago

Makes me wonder how Verilog isn’t used as a netlist format for PCB schematics. It’s used all the time as an interchange format for netlists from synthesis to APR, netlists of analog schematics, etc. Could just as easily be deployed to board schematics.

DHaldane 4y ago
It's totally valid as a netlist for PCB schematics. Some folks have crammed PCB components through a pure verilog tool chain. But it turns out that 'a standard way to type out a netlist' is not the main thing an electrical designer needs from a language to be productive.
mercurywells 4y ago
VHDL has been used for design and simulation of boards (by myself and others).

Namidairo 4y ago

I've always been a little amused when I see an entire ESP32/ESP8266 or similar module just sitting on top of boards instead of being a part of it. I presume it's cost/complexity, but it's a weird thing that ends up as a common solution.

picture 4y ago
There are some reasonable reasons, like how it may speed up passing regulations. I believe RPi used some integrated WiFi modules that had certification done separately. And yeah, there's a lot of passives in those modules that I would not want to manually assemble
svnt 4y ago
The search term you want is modular certification. The volumes necessary to justify the cost, time, risk, and specialized skill set necessary to achieve both regulatory and standards certification of a WiFi device are significant.
ranger_danger 4y ago
Cost. You can easily get the premade ESP8266 boards for a quarter at scale. Laying out your own design for an ESP32 costs a lot more in time that's unnecessary usually.
underpickled 4y ago
If you're referring to the module on those boards, I can tell you it's because the actual IC was impossible to source. Only modules were readily available.

tapatio 4y ago

:vomit:

kayson 4y ago

The core ideas here are cool, but switching from a symbolic, schematic based approach to code seems insane for what amounts to strictly analog/RF design. In integrated circuit design, "modules", parametric components, and bulk connections are standard practice in our schematics. We can also integrate this/use the same techniques with relatively high performance layouts. There's no reason the same couldn't be used for PCBs, and I'm honestly a little surprised that those features don't exist given that the only two major IC design software companies also make PCB design software. I've mostly done analog IC design, but I've also done a not insignificant amount of verliog/vhdl, programming, infra as code, and pcb design. I can't pin point exactly why, but I just can't see how you accomplish the same thing visually and/or information ally with code as you can a graphical schematic.

bb88 4y ago
There was a talk at Kicon that touched on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErQYI2A36M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErQYI2A36M At some point for large enough designs, it's hard to validate that pins match up to signals. Though for small designs I think you're right.
- deaddabe 4y ago
  This talk was impressive. Especially repeating parts and even using machine learning to optimize values of resistors. TL;DW the tool is named Skidl ans uses Python to generate net lists for KiCAD. https://github.com/devbisme/skidl https://github.com/devbisme/skidl
  - welterde 4y ago
    So far I have only used skidl for a few small projects. One project where it worked really well was in creating the schematic for backplanes, which is normally kinda tedious - especially if one has to create multiple variants with different slot numbers.
  - ris 4y ago
    > chooses an imperative language to define circuit topologies hmm.. maybe that's ok if they don't go too overboard and encourage a functional style > uses & as an in-place, mutating operator that's it, I'm out of here

teleforce 4y ago

I think software-defined (customized) hardware programming is the future whether it is in the form of HaaS or not. The JITX company mentioned in the article is a YC startup trying to automate the electronics design part with AI. The company is using a new L. B. Stanza programming language created as one of the co-founders Ph.D thesis [1]. If you want to learn on embedded system design this is a recently released book with an accompanying open source hardware design described in the book [2],[3]. [1]http://lbstanza.org/ http://lbstanza.org/ [2]https://us.artechhouse.com/mobile/A-Hands-On-Guide-to-Designing-Embedded-Systems-P2204.aspx https://us.artechhouse.com/mobile/A-Hands-On-Guide-to-Design... [3]https://www.eejournal.com/article/a-hands-on-guide-to-designing-embedded-systems/ https://www.eejournal.com/article/a-hands-on-guide-to-design...