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>... The Mafia? Any other criminal or terrorist organization or individual? The police operating under an incorrect warrant? A creepy ex? The mafia is easy. P

>... The Mafia? Any other criminal or terrorist organization or individual? The police operating under an incorrect warrant? A creepy ex? The mafia is easy. Pay them and they DGAF what you do. Creepy ex is more or less a non-issue because any threat of violence one person can bring can be matched by another one person. It's the police, terrorists and other well resourced but potentially capricious organizations (like the CDC, or any other federal bureaucracy, obviously the trigger happy ones are higher on the list), the kind of organizations who can send a dozen thugs to kick in your door and who have diffused responsibility across so many people you can't "get even" that you don't want coming after you. >the CDC is at worst going to do what it thinks is best for you, Every horror in history was committed with the best of intentions. Edit: and to be clear, I'm not too worried about the CDC themselves, I'm worried about the legions of useful idiots that will happily take whatever they say and run with it. If the CDC makes BS or politically charged recommendations there is a myriad of other institutions (government and otherwise) that will see that as their ticket to do whatever bad thing they were already fishing for a reason to do. I don't want anyone having my data. But given the choice I'd rather have people who want to sell me penis pills and time shares have my data than people who want to tell me how to live.

renewiltord 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  Don't be obtuse. The Nazis gassed people because they thought that eliminating the demographics they were gassing would lead to a better society. Sure the people at the top knew it was questionable but the guy loading the train had spent a decade reading newspapers full of junk and thought he was deporting undesirables. The American Indians who's culture was systematically destroyed, all those people the eugenicists sterilized, the black communities that were turned into crap over the 50s and 60s, all of that was done by people trying to their little part make the world a better place.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    Fine. You're right. That was unfair. I'm just annoyed that there is wholesale bullshit going on in this comment thread about the data and I applied that annoyance to you. Consider the comment withdrawn.
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      Thank you for being reasonable.
  - phs318u 4y ago
    In all those cases there was a pre-existing, widespread social bias and open bigotry against the groups being targeted - which of course doesn't make it right, but does explain why such things were tolerated and even thought to be good ideas in those societies. But in most of those cases, I would argue that the intentions of the leadership enacting such policies did not do so out of pure-though-extremely-misguided intentions. They acted in various ways to disenfranchise and disempower (gross understatement in the case of the holocaust!) the groups being targeted, playing to the gallery and entrenching their own power. As I read the sentiment in the US (as an outsider), I find it hard to believe the CDC are playing to the gallery here. I think there is a genuine intention on the part of the CDC (despite the CDC being a key bogeyman in many flavours of fever-dream). The problem is that the culture of secrecy and "for your own good" in the US is so entrenched (because it's soooo much easier than trying to educate folks), that combined with past mistakes, trust has been irrevocably eroded to the extent that everything is doubted by everyone. My own view is that this is symptomatic of a huge malaise in the US and to a lesser (but growing) extent in the rest of the world. Can the idea of "society" function in the face of such mistrust in instututions? I doubt it. We are increasingly voluntarily partitioning ourselves into tribes/bantustans and shrinking the circle of trust. To my mind that model doesn't scale well with population. Bad times ahead.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    You are being obtuse - in neither of the cases did anyone involved believe people being killed were killed for their own good. The 'other' were being killed so that the right people can benefit. How is this comparable to the topic at hand?
- ellopoppit 4y ago
  It was public health officials, doctors and psychiatrists who helped lay the foundation for the holocaust, under the auspices of public health and fighting disease. https://perspectives.ushmm.org/collection/public-health-under-the-third-reich#:~:text=The%20war%20created%20conditions%20that,groups%20for%20causing%20such%20outbreaks https://perspectives.ushmm.org/collection/public-health-unde....
- coding123 4y ago
  He was just paraphrasing a famous quote.
darkerside 4y ago
Those horrors in history were created through the combination of good intentions (also integral to the best of human history), and the dehumanization of subgroups. What exactly do you fear from the CDC, and who do you fear they will do it to? Not just a challenge, a genuine question.
- ellopoppit 4y ago
  >Those horrors in history were created through the combination of good intentions (also integral to the best of human history), and the dehumanization of subgroups The CDC has a historical record of such things. What makes you think human beings are incapabale of repeating such crimes against humanity?
  - darkerside 4y ago
    I don't. But so could elementary school teachers, the National Black Caucus, or the sanitation workers union. It's much more productive to talk about actual concerns. Do you have any to share?
    - ellopoppit 4y ago
      >so could elementary school teachers Is there any historical precedent of elementary school teachers committing crimes against humanity comparable to public health officials? >It's much more productive to talk about actual concerns. Do you have any to share? Are you not familiar with any of the historical atrocities committed by public health officials across the world since the beginning of "public health"?
- IfOnlyYouKnew 4y ago
  The holocaust had decidedly not "good intentions". No, not even by its own definition, and definitely not in the sense the term is constantly abused as some magic bullet to refute any position that is otherwise unassailable.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
'any threat of violence one person can bring can be matched by another one person.' So thousands of people that are burgled, mugged and murdered by random criminals every year are a non-problem. Organised crime is a non problem. You suffering a hypothetical potential for overreach by the CDC in some undefined timeframe is a real problem

renewiltord 4y ago

[flagged]

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Don't be obtuse. The Nazis gassed people because they thought that eliminating the demographics they were gassing would lead to a better society. Sure the people at the top knew it was questionable but the guy loading the train had spent a decade reading newspapers full of junk and thought he was deporting undesirables. The American Indians who's culture was systematically destroyed, all those people the eugenicists sterilized, the black communities that were turned into crap over the 50s and 60s, all of that was done by people trying to their little part make the world a better place.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  Fine. You're right. That was unfair. I'm just annoyed that there is wholesale bullshit going on in this comment thread about the data and I applied that annoyance to you. Consider the comment withdrawn.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    Thank you for being reasonable.
- phs318u 4y ago
  In all those cases there was a pre-existing, widespread social bias and open bigotry against the groups being targeted - which of course doesn't make it right, but does explain why such things were tolerated and even thought to be good ideas in those societies. But in most of those cases, I would argue that the intentions of the leadership enacting such policies did not do so out of pure-though-extremely-misguided intentions. They acted in various ways to disenfranchise and disempower (gross understatement in the case of the holocaust!) the groups being targeted, playing to the gallery and entrenching their own power. As I read the sentiment in the US (as an outsider), I find it hard to believe the CDC are playing to the gallery here. I think there is a genuine intention on the part of the CDC (despite the CDC being a key bogeyman in many flavours of fever-dream). The problem is that the culture of secrecy and "for your own good" in the US is so entrenched (because it's soooo much easier than trying to educate folks), that combined with past mistakes, trust has been irrevocably eroded to the extent that everything is doubted by everyone. My own view is that this is symptomatic of a huge malaise in the US and to a lesser (but growing) extent in the rest of the world. Can the idea of "society" function in the face of such mistrust in instututions? I doubt it. We are increasingly voluntarily partitioning ourselves into tribes/bantustans and shrinking the circle of trust. To my mind that model doesn't scale well with population. Bad times ahead.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  You are being obtuse - in neither of the cases did anyone involved believe people being killed were killed for their own good. The 'other' were being killed so that the right people can benefit. How is this comparable to the topic at hand?
ellopoppit 4y ago
It was public health officials, doctors and psychiatrists who helped lay the foundation for the holocaust, under the auspices of public health and fighting disease. https://perspectives.ushmm.org/collection/public-health-under-the-third-reich#:~:text=The%20war%20created%20conditions%20that,groups%20for%20causing%20such%20outbreaks https://perspectives.ushmm.org/collection/public-health-unde....
coding123 4y ago
He was just paraphrasing a famous quote.

darkerside 4y ago

Those horrors in history were created through the combination of good intentions (also integral to the best of human history), and the dehumanization of subgroups. What exactly do you fear from the CDC, and who do you fear they will do it to? Not just a challenge, a genuine question.

ellopoppit 4y ago
>Those horrors in history were created through the combination of good intentions (also integral to the best of human history), and the dehumanization of subgroups The CDC has a historical record of such things. What makes you think human beings are incapabale of repeating such crimes against humanity?
- darkerside 4y ago
  I don't. But so could elementary school teachers, the National Black Caucus, or the sanitation workers union. It's much more productive to talk about actual concerns. Do you have any to share?
  - ellopoppit 4y ago
    >so could elementary school teachers Is there any historical precedent of elementary school teachers committing crimes against humanity comparable to public health officials? >It's much more productive to talk about actual concerns. Do you have any to share? Are you not familiar with any of the historical atrocities committed by public health officials across the world since the beginning of "public health"?
IfOnlyYouKnew 4y ago
The holocaust had decidedly not "good intentions". No, not even by its own definition, and definitely not in the sense the term is constantly abused as some magic bullet to refute any position that is otherwise unassailable.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

'any threat of violence one person can bring can be matched by another one person.' So thousands of people that are burgled, mugged and murdered by random criminals every year are a non-problem. Organised crime is a non problem. You suffering a hypothetical potential for overreach by the CDC in some undefined timeframe is a real problem