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> 5,000 years ago there were no people who looked like Swedes. Now there are because of selection pressures. 100% false. You need to realize that. 5,000 year

> 5,000 years ago there were no people who looked like Swedes. Now there are because of selection pressures. 100% false. You need to realize that. 5,000 years is not enough time to do anything significant, genetically.

User23 4y ago
It absolutely is if there is a severe population bottleneck that selects for some trait in the survivors.
- TameAntelope 4y ago
  ...which has never happened in human history. Bottlenecks? Yes. Bottlenecks that selected specifically for a specific gene? No.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    Tibetans and Andeans both have adaptations for living at high altitudes. The Tibetan ones are better because they come from Denisovans, predating the existence of modern humans. There’s been massive positive selection on lactose persistence. 5,000 years ago no human adults could digest lactase. The differences in diabetes among human populations track closely with length of time they have been using agriculture.
    - TameAntelope 4y ago
      That is not an example of a bottleneck, nor is it an example of a genetic adaptation occurring recently, as both happened more than ten thousand years ago. And none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the cultural concept of race. There are people who are not "Tibetans" who have this genetic adaptation, and there are "Tibetans" who do not have this genetic adaptation. Further, the pairing of this genetic trait with other genetic traits does not exist. Having this genetic trait does not make you more likely to have a set of other genetic traits, and none of the genetic traits add up to a specific "Tibetan" set of features or traits, all of which you would need to have to be called "Tibetan". There is no such thing as "genetic race".
      - User23 4y ago
        Please stop violating the HN guidelines. I get that you're emotional about the subject and have a religious zeal for it, but that's no excuse for name-calling. There is no evidence that anyone you're replying to is writing in bad faith. They may be wrong, although you've failed to show that in any way that satisfies intellectual curiosity, but that doesn't justify personal attacks and slimy rhetoric[1]. [1] http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/erist32.htm http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/erist32.htm
        TameAntelope 4y ago
        It's not your job to police Hacker News. If I've violated a rule, that's up to the moderators of this site to police, not you. You are a user, same as me. I'd even argue attempting to enforce the rules as a user is a violation of those very same rules. I believe the people I'm talking to right now are supporting racist ideas and policies, and that makes those people, definitionally, racists. Including you! I apply no moral judgement to that term here; if you do not want to be called a racist, do not support ideas and policies that are racist.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        > And none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the cultural concept of race. Quite true. Race is a useless and imprecise term and it’s a pity you felt the need to start talking about it. The clustering of traits among human ancestry population groups and the reasons for that don’t need that baggage.
        TameAntelope 4y ago
        I didn't start talking about it, you did when you started talking about "Swedes" and "Tibetans".
  - stevenhuang 4y ago
    It has happened countless times in history. See the sickle cell trait for instance. I feel you're unable to discuss productively on this matter because you seem to think that believing in the concept of phenotypes means support for eugenics... which no one here is advocating for.
barry-cotter 4y ago
Are you saying that there have always been people who looked like Swedes in Sweden? Because from my reading of the literature 5,000 years ago there people living there had blue eyes but dark hair and a complexion we’d associate with Mediterranean peoples. Most dog breeds were created in less than 150 years. Call it 150 generations. 5,000 years is 200 generations at 25 years per generation. Enough time to change quite dramatically.
- TameAntelope 4y ago
  There is no such thing as a genetic "Swede". Literally every trait you could name is neither exclusive on its own or in any particular combination with Swedish people. And no, humans were not bred like dogs, so your math is both offensive and completely useless. At this point I'm beginning to think you're being intentionally hateful.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    > humans were not bred like dogs That the selection pressures on dogs were due to humans performing artificial selection and those on humans due to the environment does not mean that they weren’t both selection pressures. Thus brown ancestors to the very pale Swedes.
    - TameAntelope 4y ago
      There were no meaningfully powerful selection pressures on Swedes, such as the pressures we applied to dogs, not in the time period you've specified. Please stop spouting racist ideas, these were debunked thoroughly in the 1910s by Franz Boas and then over and over again by his students.
    - User23 4y ago
      Many, if not most, human populations spent the majority of their existence with some kind of arranged marriage system. I wouldn't say "bred like dogs" because it's insulting, but human mating and procreation isn't remotely random. This is true even in societies that no longer practice arranged marriages.

User23 4y ago

It absolutely is if there is a severe population bottleneck that selects for some trait in the survivors.

TameAntelope 4y ago
...which has never happened in human history. Bottlenecks? Yes. Bottlenecks that selected specifically for a specific gene? No.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Tibetans and Andeans both have adaptations for living at high altitudes. The Tibetan ones are better because they come from Denisovans, predating the existence of modern humans. There’s been massive positive selection on lactose persistence. 5,000 years ago no human adults could digest lactase. The differences in diabetes among human populations track closely with length of time they have been using agriculture.
  - TameAntelope 4y ago
    That is not an example of a bottleneck, nor is it an example of a genetic adaptation occurring recently, as both happened more than ten thousand years ago. And none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the cultural concept of race. There are people who are not "Tibetans" who have this genetic adaptation, and there are "Tibetans" who do not have this genetic adaptation. Further, the pairing of this genetic trait with other genetic traits does not exist. Having this genetic trait does not make you more likely to have a set of other genetic traits, and none of the genetic traits add up to a specific "Tibetan" set of features or traits, all of which you would need to have to be called "Tibetan". There is no such thing as "genetic race".
    - User23 4y ago
      Please stop violating the HN guidelines. I get that you're emotional about the subject and have a religious zeal for it, but that's no excuse for name-calling. There is no evidence that anyone you're replying to is writing in bad faith. They may be wrong, although you've failed to show that in any way that satisfies intellectual curiosity, but that doesn't justify personal attacks and slimy rhetoric[1]. [1] http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/erist32.htm http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/erist32.htm
      - TameAntelope 4y ago
        It's not your job to police Hacker News. If I've violated a rule, that's up to the moderators of this site to police, not you. You are a user, same as me. I'd even argue attempting to enforce the rules as a user is a violation of those very same rules. I believe the people I'm talking to right now are supporting racist ideas and policies, and that makes those people, definitionally, racists. Including you! I apply no moral judgement to that term here; if you do not want to be called a racist, do not support ideas and policies that are racist.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      > And none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the cultural concept of race. Quite true. Race is a useless and imprecise term and it’s a pity you felt the need to start talking about it. The clustering of traits among human ancestry population groups and the reasons for that don’t need that baggage.
      - TameAntelope 4y ago
        I didn't start talking about it, you did when you started talking about "Swedes" and "Tibetans".
- stevenhuang 4y ago
  It has happened countless times in history. See the sickle cell trait for instance. I feel you're unable to discuss productively on this matter because you seem to think that believing in the concept of phenotypes means support for eugenics... which no one here is advocating for.

barry-cotter 4y ago

Are you saying that there have always been people who looked like Swedes in Sweden? Because from my reading of the literature 5,000 years ago there people living there had blue eyes but dark hair and a complexion we’d associate with Mediterranean peoples. Most dog breeds were created in less than 150 years. Call it 150 generations. 5,000 years is 200 generations at 25 years per generation. Enough time to change quite dramatically.

TameAntelope 4y ago
There is no such thing as a genetic "Swede". Literally every trait you could name is neither exclusive on its own or in any particular combination with Swedish people. And no, humans were not bred like dogs, so your math is both offensive and completely useless. At this point I'm beginning to think you're being intentionally hateful.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > humans were not bred like dogs That the selection pressures on dogs were due to humans performing artificial selection and those on humans due to the environment does not mean that they weren’t both selection pressures. Thus brown ancestors to the very pale Swedes.
  - TameAntelope 4y ago
    There were no meaningfully powerful selection pressures on Swedes, such as the pressures we applied to dogs, not in the time period you've specified. Please stop spouting racist ideas, these were debunked thoroughly in the 1910s by Franz Boas and then over and over again by his students.
  - User23 4y ago
    Many, if not most, human populations spent the majority of their existence with some kind of arranged marriage system. I wouldn't say "bred like dogs" because it's insulting, but human mating and procreation isn't remotely random. This is true even in societies that no longer practice arranged marriages.