5 ms·

It's still corporate but it's much less visible. Now many things look cool and transgressive - including elements of startup culture - but the goals are still c

It's still corporate but it's much less visible. Now many things look cool and transgressive - including elements of startup culture - but the goals are still corporate. In a real counter culture the goals are aggressively anti-corporate. The most impressive part is the way that individualism has become almost entirely a corporate creation. You "express yourself" by choosing and displaying products, all of which are either corporate or sold through a corporate monopoly (Amazon, Ebay, Etsy). The middle classes are allowed some artisanal choices, but only because they signal a more refined and informed kind of consumerism. There really isn't much evidence of individualism which isn't assembled from some combination of corporate-friendly competitive ambition, Veblen signalling, standardised rebellion/outsider tropes, and political and religious tribalism.

markvdb 5y ago
There _is_ a lot of genuine expression. It's just not very visible and/or you might not recognise it as such. The sausage machine might be involved in some way , but that doesn't necessarily make it a product of the sausage machine!
- Teever 5y ago
  Can you provide some examples of what you feel is genuine expression in this context?
  - kradeelav 5y ago
    Not the OP, but as an artist, art that tends to be banned or works that advertisers don't want to have ads placed next to is a good place to start. :) sexual/kink art is a big one especially as you get more esoteric.
    - wincy 5y ago
      There’s more erotic furry art produced in the last five years than has ever been produced before! Customized to each furries individual fursona. What amazing times we’re living in to express our individuality.
- kirsebaer 5y ago
  Like here we are expressing ourselves.
vkou 5y ago
> The most impressive part is the way that individualism has become almost entirely a corporate creation. You "express yourself" by choosing and displaying products, all of which are either corporate or sold through a corporate monopoly (Amazon, Ebay, Etsy). The middle classes are allowed some artisanal choices, but only because they signal a more refined and informed kind of consumerism. I think you are confusing the deluge of internet ads that tell me to 'express myself' and 'unleash my potential' by <buying their crap>, with how people actually express themselves. Maybe I hang out with the wrong people, but I've never heard any of my friends 'expressing themselves' in those ways. They obviously make statements about their take on fashion through their purchasing habits (as do I), but I don't confuse what I wear with what I am.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > I don't confuse what I wear with what I am. How people signal to others what they are is by what they're wearing. Asking people not to - good luck with that.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > I think you are confusing the deluge of internet ads that tell me to 'express myself' and 'unleash my potential' by <buying their crap>, with how people actually express themselves. Well, if they're "expressing themselves" on mainstream social media, that's "corporate" and oligopolistic in a very real sense. It's puzzling to see so much knee-jerk anti-corporatism on sites like Twitter and even here at News.YC.
WalterBright 5y ago
What are your thoughts on government art? (Art funded by the government.)
- anamax 5y ago
  At least in the US, govt art is not art in any meaningful sense. Even the horrendous corporate art is better. The closest thing to good govt art in the US is the tax-dodge stuff such as opera.
- onemoresoop 5y ago
  > What are your thoughts on government art? (Art funded by the government.) Sometimes it could be good. Artists need funding too, and generally that funding is lacking. Being an artists is associated with poverty.
coding123 5y ago
Remember HN about 5-10 years ago and everyone here was saying how they're changing the world. Corporate hired that - spoke that language - convinced that - and even echo chambered some of it. You see someone say something racist or sexist or homophobic and it's no longer the just a small voice that would blast the racist, sexist, homophobe but now it's everyone - including corporate America (and their twitter bot voices). And in the mean time since all those companies have "fallen in line" with the culture - it's OK to Buy Nike, Buy Starbucks, Buy Apple, Buy Microsoft because they all tow the line. I mean it's good and bad. For one, it's good because now there's justice for the repressed. It's bad for it's cancellation culture. There are a lot of "cancelled" people that have done FAR less than say Harvey W. yet with a single tweet - mostly careless words - they're done. Even when they have that 15 second scramble after someone calls them out it just blows up. Apologies are meaningless after that. Being one person you can't defend against unlimited neural activity of millions of people digging into the background and lobbing as far as Twitter will let it go.
- afpx 4y ago
  Haven't celebrities have always had to be careful of what they say and write? Seems like that's always been a risk to obtain mass-market status.

markvdb 5y ago

There _is_ a lot of genuine expression. It's just not very visible and/or you might not recognise it as such. The sausage machine might be involved in some way , but that doesn't necessarily make it a product of the sausage machine!

Teever 5y ago
Can you provide some examples of what you feel is genuine expression in this context?
- kradeelav 5y ago
  Not the OP, but as an artist, art that tends to be banned or works that advertisers don't want to have ads placed next to is a good place to start. :) sexual/kink art is a big one especially as you get more esoteric.
  - wincy 5y ago
    There’s more erotic furry art produced in the last five years than has ever been produced before! Customized to each furries individual fursona. What amazing times we’re living in to express our individuality.
kirsebaer 5y ago
Like here we are expressing ourselves.

vkou 5y ago

> The most impressive part is the way that individualism has become almost entirely a corporate creation. You "express yourself" by choosing and displaying products, all of which are either corporate or sold through a corporate monopoly (Amazon, Ebay, Etsy). The middle classes are allowed some artisanal choices, but only because they signal a more refined and informed kind of consumerism. I think you are confusing the deluge of internet ads that tell me to 'express myself' and 'unleash my potential' by <buying their crap>, with how people actually express themselves. Maybe I hang out with the wrong people, but I've never heard any of my friends 'expressing themselves' in those ways. They obviously make statements about their take on fashion through their purchasing habits (as do I), but I don't confuse what I wear with what I am.

WalterBright 5y ago
> I don't confuse what I wear with what I am. How people signal to others what they are is by what they're wearing. Asking people not to - good luck with that.
zozbot234 5y ago
> I think you are confusing the deluge of internet ads that tell me to 'express myself' and 'unleash my potential' by <buying their crap>, with how people actually express themselves. Well, if they're "expressing themselves" on mainstream social media, that's "corporate" and oligopolistic in a very real sense. It's puzzling to see so much knee-jerk anti-corporatism on sites like Twitter and even here at News.YC.

WalterBright 5y ago

What are your thoughts on government art? (Art funded by the government.)

anamax 5y ago
At least in the US, govt art is not art in any meaningful sense. Even the horrendous corporate art is better. The closest thing to good govt art in the US is the tax-dodge stuff such as opera.
onemoresoop 5y ago
> What are your thoughts on government art? (Art funded by the government.) Sometimes it could be good. Artists need funding too, and generally that funding is lacking. Being an artists is associated with poverty.

coding123 5y ago

Remember HN about 5-10 years ago and everyone here was saying how they're changing the world. Corporate hired that - spoke that language - convinced that - and even echo chambered some of it. You see someone say something racist or sexist or homophobic and it's no longer the just a small voice that would blast the racist, sexist, homophobe but now it's everyone - including corporate America (and their twitter bot voices). And in the mean time since all those companies have "fallen in line" with the culture - it's OK to Buy Nike, Buy Starbucks, Buy Apple, Buy Microsoft because they all tow the line. I mean it's good and bad. For one, it's good because now there's justice for the repressed. It's bad for it's cancellation culture. There are a lot of "cancelled" people that have done FAR less than say Harvey W. yet with a single tweet - mostly careless words - they're done. Even when they have that 15 second scramble after someone calls them out it just blows up. Apologies are meaningless after that. Being one person you can't defend against unlimited neural activity of millions of people digging into the background and lobbing as far as Twitter will let it go.

afpx 4y ago
Haven't celebrities have always had to be careful of what they say and write? Seems like that's always been a risk to obtain mass-market status.