4 ms·

Governments have a long and storied record of data abuse, from the Stasi in East Germany to LoveInt at the CIA.

by nickff 5y ago

Nextgrid 5y ago
Yes, but those threats already exist regardless and stopping the sale of carrier data won't stop them. Ideally you'd want to stop both, but if I had to choose I'd prefer that only the government has access rather than the highest bidder (which can be the government if they so desire, so in the end you're back at square one anyway).
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  Did you know there are many classes of crime that follow the pattern you spoke of "It already exists out there, and will persist even if I stop, I'm not creating it just propagating it..." One pretty nasty example would be revenge porn. a lesser one would be piracy of copyright material
lucb1e 5y ago
Of course one has to keep government( agencie)s in check, but to compare the CDC to the Stasi.... I don't know if that's really an apt or appropriate comparison
modriano 5y ago
Humans have a long and storied record of using tools and information to do malicious things. But we also have a long and storied record of using tools and information to produce the incredible advances of the past few centuries, where the median life expectancy has nearly doubled from the baseline over the past 50k years. Personally, I would really prefer a system where health information was centralized and easily transferrable to healthcare providers, as I think it would be massively better if we could learn from the bad outcomes of others rather than creating thousands of information silos that have to learn these expensive lessons in parallel, and it would also allow us to know the prices of healthcare services thereby enabling efficient markets to develop.
- chaps 5y ago
  Are you suggesting that this location information is "health" data and is okay for them to use and store?
  - jonathankoren 5y ago
    Yes. Location data is health data. It has been since 1854. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outb...
    - chaps 5y ago
      Just because data is used in understanding something related to health doesn't mean that it's "health data" in a legal, protected, or regulatory sense. Nor does it mean that they should have de facto access to the data without limitations. Hell, the closest thing I'm aware of that's close to it (at least under HIPAA) is the name or address of a hospital that a person's visited. Would you be okay if the CDC purchased data from period-tracking apps to track periods? Or how many bottles of soap I purchase in a year? Or how much booze everyone buys?
      - jonathankoren 5y ago
        chaps 5y ago
        My problem is absolutely related to data privacy and I'm not sure why you think otherwise, let alone why you think I'm interested in spreading disease (seriously, what.). At a practical level, one of my bigger concerns is that they've very likely made it possible to FOIA for the location information they bought.
        brewdad 5y ago
        It would be cheaper to buy the data on the open market than to pay the research fees for a FOIA request. A LOT more timely too.
arcticbull 5y ago
Right, because businesses have never done anything bad with data, it's all those government guys. The government of course being the one tasked with improving the health and welfare of the population, not with turning a profit.
- bendbro 5y ago
pirate787 5y ago
The U.S. Govt used individuals' Census data to round up Japanese-Americans for FDR's World War II internment camps. They also lied about it and claimed that they were only using anonymized data. https://exhibits.lib.berkeley.edu/spotlight/census/feature/japanese-americans-in-world-war-ii-and-the-census https://exhibits.lib.berkeley.edu/spotlight/census/feature/j...
tablespoon 5y ago
>> Yeah. I have no problem with researchers getting anonymized data. CDC, snoop all you want. It's the business guys I don't like having it. > Governments have a long and storied record of data abuse, from the Stasi in East Germany to LoveInt at the CIA. "Governments" is far too coarse-grained of a category; it invites sloppy thinking.
ChrisLomont 5y ago
They also have a long and storied history of helping the public avoid widespread disasters and preventing larger outbreaks of disease through using data. Which of these is more common and useful?
epgui 5y ago
That's either a straw man argument or a moral equivalence fallacy, depending on what point you believe you're making.
LorenPechtel 5y ago
Note that I said "anonymized". The first step should be to separate the identity from the data. The phone's ID is plenty for research purposes, keep the name out of it.

Governments have a long and storied record of data abuse, from the Stasi in East Germany to LoveInt at the CIA.

by nickff 5y ago

Governments have a long and storied record of data abuse, from the Stasi in East Germany to LoveInt at the CIA.

Yes, but those threats already exist regardless and stopping the sale of carrier data won't stop them. Ideally you'd want to stop both, but if I had to choose I'd prefer that only the government has access rather than the highest bidder (which can be the government if they so desire, so in the end you're back at square one anyway).

maerF0x0 5y ago
Did you know there are many classes of crime that follow the pattern you spoke of "It already exists out there, and will persist even if I stop, I'm not creating it just propagating it..." One pretty nasty example would be revenge porn. a lesser one would be piracy of copyright material

lucb1e 5y ago

Of course one has to keep government( agencie)s in check, but to compare the CDC to the Stasi.... I don't know if that's really an apt or appropriate comparison

modriano 5y ago

Humans have a long and storied record of using tools and information to do malicious things. But we also have a long and storied record of using tools and information to produce the incredible advances of the past few centuries, where the median life expectancy has nearly doubled from the baseline over the past 50k years. Personally, I would really prefer a system where health information was centralized and easily transferrable to healthcare providers, as I think it would be massively better if we could learn from the bad outcomes of others rather than creating thousands of information silos that have to learn these expensive lessons in parallel, and it would also allow us to know the prices of healthcare services thereby enabling efficient markets to develop.

chaps 5y ago
Are you suggesting that this location information is "health" data and is okay for them to use and store?
- jonathankoren 5y ago
  Yes. Location data is health data. It has been since 1854. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outb...
  - chaps 5y ago
    Just because data is used in understanding something related to health doesn't mean that it's "health data" in a legal, protected, or regulatory sense. Nor does it mean that they should have de facto access to the data without limitations. Hell, the closest thing I'm aware of that's close to it (at least under HIPAA) is the name or address of a hospital that a person's visited. Would you be okay if the CDC purchased data from period-tracking apps to track periods? Or how many bottles of soap I purchase in a year? Or how much booze everyone buys?
    - jonathankoren 5y ago
      - chaps 5y ago
        My problem is absolutely related to data privacy and I'm not sure why you think otherwise, let alone why you think I'm interested in spreading disease (seriously, what.). At a practical level, one of my bigger concerns is that they've very likely made it possible to FOIA for the location information they bought.
        brewdad 5y ago
        It would be cheaper to buy the data on the open market than to pay the research fees for a FOIA request. A LOT more timely too.

arcticbull 5y ago

Right, because businesses have never done anything bad with data, it's all those government guys. The government of course being the one tasked with improving the health and welfare of the population, not with turning a profit.

bendbro 5y ago

pirate787 5y ago

The U.S. Govt used individuals' Census data to round up Japanese-Americans for FDR's World War II internment camps. They also lied about it and claimed that they were only using anonymized data. https://exhibits.lib.berkeley.edu/spotlight/census/feature/japanese-americans-in-world-war-ii-and-the-census https://exhibits.lib.berkeley.edu/spotlight/census/feature/j...

tablespoon 5y ago

>> Yeah. I have no problem with researchers getting anonymized data. CDC, snoop all you want. It's the business guys I don't like having it. > Governments have a long and storied record of data abuse, from the Stasi in East Germany to LoveInt at the CIA. "Governments" is far too coarse-grained of a category; it invites sloppy thinking.

ChrisLomont 5y ago

They also have a long and storied history of helping the public avoid widespread disasters and preventing larger outbreaks of disease through using data. Which of these is more common and useful?

epgui 5y ago

That's either a straw man argument or a moral equivalence fallacy, depending on what point you believe you're making.

LorenPechtel 5y ago

Note that I said "anonymized". The first step should be to separate the identity from the data. The phone's ID is plenty for research purposes, keep the name out of it.