4 ms·

To be frank, this "study" is absurd & invalid, and there is 100% an association between breed and behavior (we literally breed dogs for certain behavioral trait

To be frank, this "study" is absurd & invalid, and there is 100% an association between breed and behavior (we literally breed dogs for certain behavioral traits!). On that topic, I realize it's controversial but think pitbulls should be banned outright - they are responsible for the majority of fatal dog-related attacks and there is a wealth of evidence indicating that they are not a desirable breed. https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/

loceng 4y ago
Indeed, there are intuitive or instinctual behaviours different breeds have - of course they can learn other behaviours from observing other dogs, and training can reduce or suppress instincts to some degree as well. Context matters too, so if the environment doesn't match what their instincts would lead them to do don't have the opportunity to get triggered then you're not going to see them, at least not as often or as strongly. The most obvious to me are the breeds that were bred for herding, and where you see that behaviour in mixes of that breed as well - even if it's muted some. And I tend towards agreeing with you re: pitbulls. I've seen perfectly friendly and generally very gentle pitbulls snap - there's no reason for this amongst the general population.
- cameronh90 4y ago
  Agree RE herding. I've seen a Collie that has never even seen a sheep try to instinctively herd a bunch of school kids. It just came naturally. My Golden Retriever on the other hand won't even chase a squirrel. He has finally learnt to guard my rabbits from the foxes, but it took a lot of training.
srveale 4y ago
From the study: "Owner survey responses are susceptible to rater bias, including the influence of breed stereotypes." That's all I could find acknowledging that this bias exists. I'm inclined to believe they know this type of bias completely invalidates the study, which is why they didn't want to explore it further. Imagine a dog owner saying "Strongly agree" to something like "Dog has a tendency to attack (or attempt to attack) other dogs", or "Dog behaves aggressively towards children." (I believe these were questions in the surveys given to the dog owners). > No no, not my precious Bulldozer, he's a sweety, just gets excited sometimes. I'll only put "neither agree nor disagree", because he only tries to attack dogs who are smaller than him. I mean, I get it, nobody wants to think ill of their beloved pet, but that's the point. A study like this needs objective measures.
sarpeedo 4y ago
To add to this here's a recent systematic review looking at rates of dog bites by and bite severity by breed. Consistently Pit-bulls and German Shepherds have higher likelihood of causing biting injury against people and have increased severity of injury [0]. Anecdotally, so far I have only seen bite injuries in the ER from Pit-bulls and German Shepherds (n < 5). That being said, whether or not breed specific legislation works to minimize dog bites is a separate scientific question. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30579079/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30579079/
scollet 4y ago
Just straight up linking to a dog whistle sub... okay...
- 0x737368 4y ago
  What's wrong with the sub?
  - randomblast 4y ago
    Based on a quick scan, there isn't much right with it. Just lots of people looking at pictures of dogs doing nothing and squealing about how dangerous that particular dog is - based purely on its looks.
    - 0x737368 4y ago
      The sub has stickies with pretty convincing evidence of the breed being dangerous. The posts by users mostly seem to be either news stories of someone getting attacked by pitbulls, users sharing their frustrations related to pitbulls and/or their owners, and a few social media screenshots where users claim that the way the dogs' owners behavior is unsafe. Even if some users comment that the dog is dangerous based on how it looks, that doesn't refute the trove of evidence that pitbulls can be an inherently unsafe breed compared to non-fighting breeds.
      - randomblast 4y ago
        Correlation is not causation. There could be plenty of reasons why pitbulls feature highly in the dog attack stats (severity making attacks more noteworthy, type of owner increasing likelihood, stigma causing human behavioural changes making a self-fulfilling prophecy). There is no evidence that genetics is a direct cause of dangerous behaviour.
        0x737368 4y ago
        > There is no evidence that genetics is a direct cause of dangerous behaviour. Haha, I'm sorry but this is hilariously false. All other working-dog breeds have genetically ingrained behaviours that no one teachers them - retrievers retrieve without anyone teaching them, border collies corral ducks and children without anyone teaching them, pointers point without anyone teaching them. However pitbulls are always the odd one out in the apologists' eyes - somehow them being purposefully bred for fighting bulls, rats and dogs and having behaviour and features that would make them successful in these pursuits is nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with their owners. Despite there being many cases of pits being adopted by very kind and caring owners and the dog still mauling them.
0x737368 4y ago
Completely agree. Unfortunately a ban unless strictly enforced doesn't lead to much - in the UK all pit bulls are banned except for staffordshires(which imo should be banned too), and you still see owners walking their bullies and american pitbulls down the street as if it was nothing, sometimes witnout a leash even.
mythrwy 4y ago
I agreed with you on Pits but about a year ago one came to my house, no collar or tags so I kept him while trying to find owner. Which of course I never did. Shelter is about at capacity here and most of these kind of dogs are put down which I didn't want to see. This dog was young (maybe 3) and friendly. My old border collie was bored and lonely and was very happy to have another dog. They get along great. Old border collie is the brains of the operation and Pit goes along. So... now I'm a proud pitbull owner. Well, not proud, but an owner at least. It's maybe not as embarrassing as having a toy poodle, but going out for walks with a mean looking ghetto dog isn't something I aspired to and it's not what I would have chosen. I took him to dog training because I was nervous about the breed. It's taught by a former police officer who specializes in handling dogs and is really great and I've learned a lot. We are now in the second advanced class and he's been doing well. I spend an hour a week in class with him and every week or so a "Pack Walk" on Saturday led by the instructor with a bunch of other dogs and people. I know the breed is responsible for a lot of attacks (and deaths) so I don't disagree with your assessment and I felt exactly the same way but now I feel differently. According to the instructor the breed is not inherently dangerous if raised correctly but I feel extra precaution is warranted. I live way outside town, very rural and have no neighbors so am in somewhat of a unique position to have a dog like this, I'm not sure I would have kept him if I lived close to other people. But so far no issues. He's very happy to have a home, gets along fantastic with my other dog and is pretty well trained at this point and he loves me more then my mom I think. Knock on wood he stays that way and honestly I don't mind a scary powerful dog watching the house but I am keeping a close eye on him for signs of aggression or violence. Which he has yet to exhibit so far. The instructor says often: "We don't have a dog problem, we have a people problem". Although pits were bred to be a fighting dog I wonder how much bad behavior can be attributed to the breed, and how much to the type of people that usually own and raise that breed.
- nopassrecover 4y ago
  What a beautiful story, thanks for sharing!
giantg2 4y ago
If you want to ban pitbulls, look at the others in the study about risk rates by breed. If you ban pitbulls they'll likely be replaced by some of these and they would need to be banned as well. Of course, in the name of the environment we could ban dog ownership altogether making this a moot discussion, right? "Number of different breeds with similar risk rates for dog bite-related fatalities (DBRFs) including: Malamutes, Chow Chows, Saint Bernards, Huskies, Great Danes, Rottweilers, Doberman Pinschers, Mastiffs, Pitbull-Type dogs, Akitas, German Shepherds, and Bulldogs." https://www.fataldogattacks.org/ https://www.fataldogattacks.org/

loceng 4y ago

Indeed, there are intuitive or instinctual behaviours different breeds have - of course they can learn other behaviours from observing other dogs, and training can reduce or suppress instincts to some degree as well. Context matters too, so if the environment doesn't match what their instincts would lead them to do don't have the opportunity to get triggered then you're not going to see them, at least not as often or as strongly. The most obvious to me are the breeds that were bred for herding, and where you see that behaviour in mixes of that breed as well - even if it's muted some. And I tend towards agreeing with you re: pitbulls. I've seen perfectly friendly and generally very gentle pitbulls snap - there's no reason for this amongst the general population.

cameronh90 4y ago
Agree RE herding. I've seen a Collie that has never even seen a sheep try to instinctively herd a bunch of school kids. It just came naturally. My Golden Retriever on the other hand won't even chase a squirrel. He has finally learnt to guard my rabbits from the foxes, but it took a lot of training.

srveale 4y ago

From the study: "Owner survey responses are susceptible to rater bias, including the influence of breed stereotypes." That's all I could find acknowledging that this bias exists. I'm inclined to believe they know this type of bias completely invalidates the study, which is why they didn't want to explore it further. Imagine a dog owner saying "Strongly agree" to something like "Dog has a tendency to attack (or attempt to attack) other dogs", or "Dog behaves aggressively towards children." (I believe these were questions in the surveys given to the dog owners). > No no, not my precious Bulldozer, he's a sweety, just gets excited sometimes. I'll only put "neither agree nor disagree", because he only tries to attack dogs who are smaller than him. I mean, I get it, nobody wants to think ill of their beloved pet, but that's the point. A study like this needs objective measures.

sarpeedo 4y ago

To add to this here's a recent systematic review looking at rates of dog bites by and bite severity by breed. Consistently Pit-bulls and German Shepherds have higher likelihood of causing biting injury against people and have increased severity of injury [0]. Anecdotally, so far I have only seen bite injuries in the ER from Pit-bulls and German Shepherds (n < 5). That being said, whether or not breed specific legislation works to minimize dog bites is a separate scientific question. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30579079/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30579079/

scollet 4y ago

Just straight up linking to a dog whistle sub... okay...

0x737368 4y ago
What's wrong with the sub?
- randomblast 4y ago
  Based on a quick scan, there isn't much right with it. Just lots of people looking at pictures of dogs doing nothing and squealing about how dangerous that particular dog is - based purely on its looks.
  - 0x737368 4y ago
    The sub has stickies with pretty convincing evidence of the breed being dangerous. The posts by users mostly seem to be either news stories of someone getting attacked by pitbulls, users sharing their frustrations related to pitbulls and/or their owners, and a few social media screenshots where users claim that the way the dogs' owners behavior is unsafe. Even if some users comment that the dog is dangerous based on how it looks, that doesn't refute the trove of evidence that pitbulls can be an inherently unsafe breed compared to non-fighting breeds.
    - randomblast 4y ago
      Correlation is not causation. There could be plenty of reasons why pitbulls feature highly in the dog attack stats (severity making attacks more noteworthy, type of owner increasing likelihood, stigma causing human behavioural changes making a self-fulfilling prophecy). There is no evidence that genetics is a direct cause of dangerous behaviour.
      - 0x737368 4y ago
        > There is no evidence that genetics is a direct cause of dangerous behaviour. Haha, I'm sorry but this is hilariously false. All other working-dog breeds have genetically ingrained behaviours that no one teachers them - retrievers retrieve without anyone teaching them, border collies corral ducks and children without anyone teaching them, pointers point without anyone teaching them. However pitbulls are always the odd one out in the apologists' eyes - somehow them being purposefully bred for fighting bulls, rats and dogs and having behaviour and features that would make them successful in these pursuits is nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with their owners. Despite there being many cases of pits being adopted by very kind and caring owners and the dog still mauling them.

0x737368 4y ago

Completely agree. Unfortunately a ban unless strictly enforced doesn't lead to much - in the UK all pit bulls are banned except for staffordshires(which imo should be banned too), and you still see owners walking their bullies and american pitbulls down the street as if it was nothing, sometimes witnout a leash even.

mythrwy 4y ago

I agreed with you on Pits but about a year ago one came to my house, no collar or tags so I kept him while trying to find owner. Which of course I never did. Shelter is about at capacity here and most of these kind of dogs are put down which I didn't want to see. This dog was young (maybe 3) and friendly. My old border collie was bored and lonely and was very happy to have another dog. They get along great. Old border collie is the brains of the operation and Pit goes along. So... now I'm a proud pitbull owner. Well, not proud, but an owner at least. It's maybe not as embarrassing as having a toy poodle, but going out for walks with a mean looking ghetto dog isn't something I aspired to and it's not what I would have chosen. I took him to dog training because I was nervous about the breed. It's taught by a former police officer who specializes in handling dogs and is really great and I've learned a lot. We are now in the second advanced class and he's been doing well. I spend an hour a week in class with him and every week or so a "Pack Walk" on Saturday led by the instructor with a bunch of other dogs and people. I know the breed is responsible for a lot of attacks (and deaths) so I don't disagree with your assessment and I felt exactly the same way but now I feel differently. According to the instructor the breed is not inherently dangerous if raised correctly but I feel extra precaution is warranted. I live way outside town, very rural and have no neighbors so am in somewhat of a unique position to have a dog like this, I'm not sure I would have kept him if I lived close to other people. But so far no issues. He's very happy to have a home, gets along fantastic with my other dog and is pretty well trained at this point and he loves me more then my mom I think. Knock on wood he stays that way and honestly I don't mind a scary powerful dog watching the house but I am keeping a close eye on him for signs of aggression or violence. Which he has yet to exhibit so far. The instructor says often: "We don't have a dog problem, we have a people problem". Although pits were bred to be a fighting dog I wonder how much bad behavior can be attributed to the breed, and how much to the type of people that usually own and raise that breed.

nopassrecover 4y ago
What a beautiful story, thanks for sharing!

giantg2 4y ago

If you want to ban pitbulls, look at the others in the study about risk rates by breed. If you ban pitbulls they'll likely be replaced by some of these and they would need to be banned as well. Of course, in the name of the environment we could ban dog ownership altogether making this a moot discussion, right? "Number of different breeds with similar risk rates for dog bite-related fatalities (DBRFs) including: Malamutes, Chow Chows, Saint Bernards, Huskies, Great Danes, Rottweilers, Doberman Pinschers, Mastiffs, Pitbull-Type dogs, Akitas, German Shepherds, and Bulldogs." https://www.fataldogattacks.org/ https://www.fataldogattacks.org/