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> Honestly in a business setting with "trusted" coworkers, less so. I tend to take what my colleagues say at face value. That's... not all that body language c

> Honestly in a business setting with "trusted" coworkers, less so. I tend to take what my colleagues say at face value. That's... not all that body language conveys? Body language helps with basic things like "Oh, Amy is trying to break in and is struggling to make her point", or "Hmm, Doug looks like he's concerned about something, I should ask him his opinion". Digital A/V communication tools also bring with them a whole host of other sources of friction, including poor audio and video, latency issues, and so forth. They are, at best a weak by tolerable substitute for face-to-face conversations, and quite frankly, IMO anyone who tries to suggest otherwise is not being honest. You might feel that the tradeoffs are justifiable, but let's not pretend there aren't tradeoffs. > The big advantage now is that people who would have been steamrolled in meetings have a chance to get their thoughts heard And conversely, people who type slower or struggle with written communication for various reasons, are significantly disadvantaged. And that's ignoring the fact that written communication lacks critical nuance (which ends up being poorly filled in with things like emojis) that can lead to confusion and misunderstandings.

dleslie 4y ago
It sounds like your meetings need more structure.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
I think this varies significantly from person to person. I learned social skills the hard way and pay very close attention to facial expressions and tone of voice. Both of those carry across clearly for me... if the video is good. This does not degrade gracefully over poor internet connections. But I find the real loss is hallway conversations and seeing the body language of the people I'm are not talking to. Going fully-remote requires deliberate changes to the company culture to make implicit things like meeting in the hallway happen remotely. This is not easy and requires more upkeep by everyone than just showing up at the office.
banannaise 4y ago
> Body language helps with basic things like "Oh, Amy is trying to break in and is struggling to make her point", or "Hmm, Doug looks like he's concerned about something, I should ask him his opinion". I'm autistic. My body language conveys things that are interpreted incorrectly by nearly everyone, particularly in management. This leads to me having to explain repeatedly that no, that's not what I'm experiencing at all, please stop. When people don't get those cues from me, they understand me better, not worse.
- passivate 4y ago
  To make it more general, non-autistic people also sometimes have trouble with body language. The non-controversial point is most humans fall somewhere on the spectrum where they're able to read others' body language - with a minority being outliers.
maccard 4y ago
> You might feel that the tradeoffs are justifiable, but let's not pretend there aren't tradeoffs. I dont know where you got the idea that I'm pretending there's not trade offs, that's exactly my point. > Digital A/V communication tools also bring with them a whole host of other sources of friction, including poor audio and video, latency issues, and so forth. And those still existed in the office. if I had a nickel for every time someone senior dialled into a call from their car with a kid in the back of it,I could buy a latte. Meanwhile, zoom and meet both have tools to help alleviate those concerns (raising hands, and queues of such). > They are, at best a weak by tolerable substitute for face-to-face conversations, and quite frankly, IMO anyone who tries to suggest otherwise is not being honest. Again, it's tradeoffs. The tradeoffs are appropriate for work conversations, but maybe not for having a deep relationship question with my partner. > And conversely, people who type slower or struggle with written communication for various reasons, are significantly disadvantaged. I mean, yes? Written communication is pretty much a hard requirement for most office jobs, and anyone who struggles with it will struggle with email and mant other forms of communication. > written communication lacks critical nuance Hard disagree here. Good written communication skills can be as nuanced as verbal communication. Besides, nuance is by definition ambiguity. Communicating in a workplace by refusing to say things is a crutch, and is a recipe for disaster.

dleslie 4y ago

It sounds like your meetings need more structure.

kayodelycaon 4y ago

I think this varies significantly from person to person. I learned social skills the hard way and pay very close attention to facial expressions and tone of voice. Both of those carry across clearly for me... if the video is good. This does not degrade gracefully over poor internet connections. But I find the real loss is hallway conversations and seeing the body language of the people I'm are not talking to. Going fully-remote requires deliberate changes to the company culture to make implicit things like meeting in the hallway happen remotely. This is not easy and requires more upkeep by everyone than just showing up at the office.

banannaise 4y ago

> Body language helps with basic things like "Oh, Amy is trying to break in and is struggling to make her point", or "Hmm, Doug looks like he's concerned about something, I should ask him his opinion". I'm autistic. My body language conveys things that are interpreted incorrectly by nearly everyone, particularly in management. This leads to me having to explain repeatedly that no, that's not what I'm experiencing at all, please stop. When people don't get those cues from me, they understand me better, not worse.

passivate 4y ago
To make it more general, non-autistic people also sometimes have trouble with body language. The non-controversial point is most humans fall somewhere on the spectrum where they're able to read others' body language - with a minority being outliers.

maccard 4y ago

> You might feel that the tradeoffs are justifiable, but let's not pretend there aren't tradeoffs. I dont know where you got the idea that I'm pretending there's not trade offs, that's exactly my point. > Digital A/V communication tools also bring with them a whole host of other sources of friction, including poor audio and video, latency issues, and so forth. And those still existed in the office. if I had a nickel for every time someone senior dialled into a call from their car with a kid in the back of it,I could buy a latte. Meanwhile, zoom and meet both have tools to help alleviate those concerns (raising hands, and queues of such). > They are, at best a weak by tolerable substitute for face-to-face conversations, and quite frankly, IMO anyone who tries to suggest otherwise is not being honest. Again, it's tradeoffs. The tradeoffs are appropriate for work conversations, but maybe not for having a deep relationship question with my partner. > And conversely, people who type slower or struggle with written communication for various reasons, are significantly disadvantaged. I mean, yes? Written communication is pretty much a hard requirement for most office jobs, and anyone who struggles with it will struggle with email and mant other forms of communication. > written communication lacks critical nuance Hard disagree here. Good written communication skills can be as nuanced as verbal communication. Besides, nuance is by definition ambiguity. Communicating in a workplace by refusing to say things is a crutch, and is a recipe for disaster.