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I think you're misunderstanding the appeal of ecosystems here. It's not just about install base - it's about the mental load of adjusting to a new set of assump

I think you're misunderstanding the appeal of ecosystems here. It's not just about install base - it's about the mental load of adjusting to a new set of assumptions and paradigms for interacting with the computer. To me, the way to think about "introducing" someone to Lisp and helping them understand the choices the language makes - you really want to focus on the things that make Lisp stand out, and one way of doing that is re-using a lot of the functionality of a language that outsiders may be familiar with. I generally agree that if you want to build something substantial you probably would choose CL over Hy, but if you want to "try a lisp" while minimizing startup costs and you have a Python background I think Hy makes way more sense.

cjohnson318 4y ago
On top of that, just figuring out which Lisp to start with, and how to get started with it, is an ordeal. In the JVM ecosystem, Java is pretty obvious, and Kotlin is a pretty obvious alternative. In the Lisp ecosystem, the well known SCIP is targeted at Scheme, Clojure is pretty well known, then there's Racket, ChezScheme, CommonLisp, and the they all look like pretty good starting places.
- mumblemumble 4y ago
  It's an expensive choice to make, too. It quickly becomes apparent that, no matter which lisp you choose, there will always be a group of people trying to convince you that you picked the wrong one, and pressuring you to second-guess yourself.
  - reikonomusha 4y ago
    You're saying it's expensive because... people on non-topical forums might tell you their opinion, uninformed of your circumstances? If you choose language X, I advise learning it alongside people who know and use X. It seems like a no-brainer to me, and not all that expensive.
    - mumblemumble 4y ago
      It's expensive because seeing that kind of stuff as a potential newcomer to a community can have a way of psyching a person out and making them think they need to be extra careful about this decision. Basically, that "if you choose..." advice is for the wrong context, specifically because of the "if you choose" qualifier. I'm talking about what happens during the pre-choice time period.
      - reikonomusha 4y ago
        I don't want to diminish the challenges newcomers have with interacting with people online, but we have to understand that even choosing Lisp is going to be met with significant derision from people who don't write Lisp since it's not a top-10 language. "Lol just use Python it's the second best at everything," is a common refrain to people who are trying in earnest to learn something new and nonstandard for a change. While I won't claim nobody has been "psyched out" by a community of people for their language-learning choices, I just don't think that this is something that happens with Lisp particularly often. The subreddit r/Lisp is predominantly Common Lisp, but more frequently than not accepts viewpoints from Clojure, Scheme, Racket, and even NewLisp programmers all in the same comment section, without bickering. As I said, if anybody wants to learn a new technology, and that somebody is a social person, finding a supportive community is important. If somebody going to be a novice at a particular language, and broadcast opinions about that language on disparate forums—some opinions which may come across as uninformed—sure, people will likely come out of the woodwork to correct them, suggest allegedly superior technology, etc.
reikonomusha 4y ago
I don't want to devolve into any petty arguments about what makes a Lisp a "Lisp", since everybody has their own incompatible definition, but I will say writing Hy feels like writing Python with weird syntax, and it does not feel like writing Lisp with a huge, familiar ecosystem of libraries. I will give you this, though, you can have a taste macros with Hy, which of course are one of the cornerstones of different Lisps. With that said, I do not feel like one would accurately develop a feel for what Lisp is like (be it Common Lisp, Scheme, Racket, or Clojure) by using Hy.
- aeturnum 4y ago
  > I don't want to devolve into any petty arguments about what makes a Lisp a "Lisp", Very much agree! I shouldn't have framed it that way. I should have said: each time you make a hybrid language between approaches, there are new people who will try it out and may discover a new and exciting way to program. Some people, in hindsight, will certainly wish they had jumped further - but they can always do that in the future and some will only make the bigger jump after making a smaller one.

cjohnson318 4y ago

On top of that, just figuring out which Lisp to start with, and how to get started with it, is an ordeal. In the JVM ecosystem, Java is pretty obvious, and Kotlin is a pretty obvious alternative. In the Lisp ecosystem, the well known SCIP is targeted at Scheme, Clojure is pretty well known, then there's Racket, ChezScheme, CommonLisp, and the they all look like pretty good starting places.

mumblemumble 4y ago
It's an expensive choice to make, too. It quickly becomes apparent that, no matter which lisp you choose, there will always be a group of people trying to convince you that you picked the wrong one, and pressuring you to second-guess yourself.
- reikonomusha 4y ago
  You're saying it's expensive because... people on non-topical forums might tell you their opinion, uninformed of your circumstances? If you choose language X, I advise learning it alongside people who know and use X. It seems like a no-brainer to me, and not all that expensive.
  - mumblemumble 4y ago
    It's expensive because seeing that kind of stuff as a potential newcomer to a community can have a way of psyching a person out and making them think they need to be extra careful about this decision. Basically, that "if you choose..." advice is for the wrong context, specifically because of the "if you choose" qualifier. I'm talking about what happens during the pre-choice time period.
    - reikonomusha 4y ago
      I don't want to diminish the challenges newcomers have with interacting with people online, but we have to understand that even choosing Lisp is going to be met with significant derision from people who don't write Lisp since it's not a top-10 language. "Lol just use Python it's the second best at everything," is a common refrain to people who are trying in earnest to learn something new and nonstandard for a change. While I won't claim nobody has been "psyched out" by a community of people for their language-learning choices, I just don't think that this is something that happens with Lisp particularly often. The subreddit r/Lisp is predominantly Common Lisp, but more frequently than not accepts viewpoints from Clojure, Scheme, Racket, and even NewLisp programmers all in the same comment section, without bickering. As I said, if anybody wants to learn a new technology, and that somebody is a social person, finding a supportive community is important. If somebody going to be a novice at a particular language, and broadcast opinions about that language on disparate forums—some opinions which may come across as uninformed—sure, people will likely come out of the woodwork to correct them, suggest allegedly superior technology, etc.

reikonomusha 4y ago

I don't want to devolve into any petty arguments about what makes a Lisp a "Lisp", since everybody has their own incompatible definition, but I will say writing Hy feels like writing Python with weird syntax, and it does not feel like writing Lisp with a huge, familiar ecosystem of libraries. I will give you this, though, you can have a taste macros with Hy, which of course are one of the cornerstones of different Lisps. With that said, I do not feel like one would accurately develop a feel for what Lisp is like (be it Common Lisp, Scheme, Racket, or Clojure) by using Hy.

aeturnum 4y ago
> I don't want to devolve into any petty arguments about what makes a Lisp a "Lisp", Very much agree! I shouldn't have framed it that way. I should have said: each time you make a hybrid language between approaches, there are new people who will try it out and may discover a new and exciting way to program. Some people, in hindsight, will certainly wish they had jumped further - but they can always do that in the future and some will only make the bigger jump after making a smaller one.