6 ms·

All the "strategies" (really just tips) follow the same pattern of either tunneling on overwork as a cause, treating symptoms or pathos. >Sid and Michelle emph

All the "strategies" (really just tips) follow the same pattern of either tunneling on overwork as a cause, treating symptoms or pathos. >Sid and Michelle emphasized that the earlier a manager can identify burnout the better. Honestly, at the point of identification, you're likely too late. Especially for something as insidious as burnout, which can last for years and not show any symptoms before it is beyond the point of no return. >GitLab team members are often under a lot of pressure. So stop putting them under a lot of pressure. The second tip hints at this, but it only seems to be a reactionary measure. Maybe all this goalsetting, OKRs and such is exactly the problem with the industry, always having to feel pressured to an extreme by metrics and stats which effectively mean nothing, when most people just want to put in an honest day's work and progress. Maybe it's time to admit corporations went too far pressuring the average worker to worry over every little detail.

spacemadness 4y ago
Anecdote time. As I’ve moved into larger companies and am shackled by OKRs, I am enjoying my work a lot less and feel under more pressure than ever but am getting less useful work done. It feels like a lack of trust and assumes the organization is run very efficiently and fairly—which I don’t think any company can truly claim. People just seem to adjust by gaming these systems instead of putting useful effort into their work.
- twh270 4y ago
  I agree fully with this. I'm currently at a small company (which has a different set of challenges), but my experience is that large employers come up with flavor-of-the-year useless metrics in an attempt to measure progress towards goals and productivity.
  - senojsitruc 4y ago
    Google Plus. https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-page-just-tied-employee-bonuses-to-the-success-of-the-googles-social-strategy-2011-4?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-page-just-tied-employe...
- hallway_monitor 4y ago
  Moving to a small company is the only antidote, for the most part. Actually, pretty much everything is better at a small company. For anyone who's only worked at a mega corp or a "Unicorn" where working 60+ hours is expected, working with a small group of people who all know each other will change your life.
  - chrsig 4y ago
    it can depend on the stage of life of the small company. I've been at my current company from it's series A, through a series B, a layoff, sale of one of it's IPs/customer bases, and ultimately sale to a holding company. I agree with your overall point -- working with a small group of people who all know each other is great. I've had the opportunity to work with some people for the better part of a decade, and having that kind history with coworkers can be a real boon for communication and planning. It's also much more impactful when a coworker decides to leave. The real shift towards a more sane work style happened after the acquisition by the holding company. It came with a layoff at the start, which was really disruptive. However, since then, there's been a huge focus on profitability rather than growth. Willingness to make big investments is much more conservative.
- outworlder 4y ago
  > As I’ve moved into larger companies and am shackled by OKRs, I am enjoying my work a lot less and feel under more pressure than ever but am getting less useful work done. Ditto. At this point I feel that spending my entire day writing emails (even though I'm on engineering) would not only look better but would meet OKRs, while getting zero actual useful work done. I hate this fad.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    This is precisely the cause of my burnout this month, at a huge aerospace company you’ve heard of. I felt like I wasn’t able to motivate myself to do the work, because I was incentivized to do what you described. I ended up doing both, poorly, but honestly I was able to make it a shockingly long time (I’m surprised I was the one to realize and decide to leave, no manager conversation yet).
- jldugger 4y ago
  > As I’ve moved into larger companies and am shackled by OKRs Try moving into a large company _without_ OKRs. How much redundancy do you need to buy to achieve your service reliability goals? Well, you can decide on any goal you want but management now has the right to declare the decision wrong post-hoc: Got an outage? Should have spent more Didn't have an outage? Why are we wasting all this money? And of course, by avoiding any public commitment like an OKR, they are somehow absolved of accountability in the matter.
twh270 4y ago
I'd shorten that to "Maybe it's time to admit corporations went too far pressuring the average worker". It took me a long time to realize it, but work/life balance in the U.S. is weighted far too heavily in favor of business, at the expense of the individual and their family and community.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  It's not just the US. Without going into the nuances of the US, things like burnout are severely on the rise among the younger crowds all over the world despite some of them working as much or less than before in several countries. Most of these countries are adopting American office concepts. More statistics, more pressure, more management / talks with management, more "work family", tighter interviews, you name it. All stuff that pressures the Average Joe who just wants to make a living. For SE, the majority of these jobs are best described as "gluing APIs together", nowhere near the prestigious "you really gotta want it!" jobs they are sold as. Now add to that while SE does earn above average in all of these countries, it isn't so luxurious as a non-senior that you could pick your nose and live super comfortably no matter which city you live in. So the pressure got worse and both intrinsic and extrinsic motivators are down. Add onto that a bunch of other societal problems. If anything, it's more surprising people aren't expecting half the populace to burn out at some point in life.
  - outworlder 4y ago
    You start by arguing that it's not just the US, and then continue by saying that the rest of the world is adopting american practices, which is causing the issue. I'm confused.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      The former was referencing location, in that other western countries are already having the same problems. Partially due to adopting the latter culturally. However, American office culture is not the sole problem: a lot of people in EU wouldn't object to these office politics nearly as much if there was a luxurious total comp attached to it or an interesting job. They go through worse hoops just for those. That said, maybe it'd be more apt to say "Silicon Valley office culture".
y-c-o-m-b 4y ago
> So stop putting them under a lot of pressure. The second tip hints at this, but it only seems to be a reactionary measure. Maybe all this goalsetting, OKRs and such is exactly the problem with the industry, always having to feel pressured to an extreme by metrics and stats which effectively mean nothing, when most people just want to put in an honest day's work and progress. You nailed it. The entire article can be summed up by your statement. It's great they're acknowledging it, but putting corporate make-up on it is cringey; it almost comes off like we are the problem and not the other way around. I don't give a damn about "drinking the kool-aid" and I don't give a damn about your business theatrics nor the political drama that goes with it. Give me work to do and leave me alone to do it. That'll solve a lot of the burn-out.
- wiz21c 4y ago
  that's super right. Got first hand unfortunate experience. The simple thing is: please managers don't buy the work-hard-to-compete ethos. It's not because you can take it that others can or should.
- kodah 4y ago
  American Corporations drink their own kool-aid, which is probably why they can sit there and talk about what's wrong concisely without knowing what to do about it. The days of servant leadership, or leading from the front are gone in terms of management. Instead, they're a self-serving bunch. Engineers are effectively the lowest on the hierarchy and their happiness matters to no one in the chain because everyone is serving the link above them. If software ever does unionize I don't think it'll be over pay, it'll be over stuff like this.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - malfist 4y ago
    You have a very negative opinion about management. Please remember that managers are people too and they're (likely) trying their best too. Just as they give you feedback, it is often helpful to give upward feedback too. Especially if it's in the form of "I need you to do X to help me"
nrdgrrrl 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
outworlder 4y ago
> Maybe all this goalsetting, OKRs and such is exactly the problem with the industry, Yes, yes it is. That is also a symptom of a bigger problem: management doesn't really have to be useful for the company, they merely have to _appear_ to be. Exceptional management is nearly invisible, which is great for companies, bad for careers. The solution? Managers will make noise and a lot of it. Part of this requires crazy deadlines. If the ship is not creaking it's not being pushed hard enough. Attrition? Bad culture fit, we work hard, we play hard. "I delivered <project> months ahead of schedule" sounds way better than "I delivered it on time" - nevermind that the "delivered" project is a buggy mess noone uses and will require a lot more effort to get to an acceptable state. We should be praising progress. Not everything should be a 'sprint', it should be a 'march'. What's all the sprinting for? Most deadlines literally don't matter. Motivated teams that are able to perform their best work do matter. > when most people just want to put in an honest day's work and progress. This.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  << Exceptional management is nearly invisible, which is great for companies, bad for careers. The more I think about it, the more it aligns with my experiences so far. << Most deadlines literally don't matter. What?! Are you insane? What are we going to tell blue ribbon initiative committee? << Managers will make noise and a lot of it. Yup.
- sirmarksalot 4y ago
  > We should be praising progress. Not everything should be a 'sprint', it should be a 'march'. What's all the sprinting for? I'm of two minds on this statement. On the one hand, "sprint" isn't meant to be taken literally in the scrum metaphor, in that teams aren't supposed to be trying to cram in as much stuff as humanly possible. But at the same time, the idea of each two-week period needing to have concrete goals, and failure to meet those goals being a negative indicator, is a major issue. For me, the value of having deadlines, or something resembling a deadline, is to make it easier to get started. Once I've actually got the ball rolling, it's less important that the schedule actually resembles the plan, insofar as it doesn't affect other people. But my experience with scrum teams is that progress isn't seen as good enough. You have to execute on the plan, at least as far as scheduling is concerned, and cut corners if you have to. The issue is this rigid equivalency of plan = commitment, and therefore deviation from that plan = failure. No, a plan does not necessarily mean a commitment. A plan lets you get started without spending so much time in decision paralysis. Once you're moving, the real plan evolves.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
LegitShady 4y ago
You're not wrong. The problem is conflicting incentives. Managers are incentivized to create metrics, goals, deadlines, and performance structures that give them the feeling (really just a feeling often) of being able to measure and 'control' progress. The problem is the people accountable for all those things are living under the weight of all their KPIs and metrics. The more those measurements are reduced or made less important the easier it is to focus on just doing the work. But for the manager it becomes harder to state how good the process is, and what they need to do to stay on track.
jseban 4y ago
> So stop putting them under a lot of pressure. The second tip hints at this, but it only seems to be a reactionary measure. Maybe all this goalsetting, OKRs and such is exactly the problem with the industry, always having to feel pressured to an extreme by metrics and stats which effectively mean nothing, when most people just want to put in an honest day's work and progress. Yeah I wish you'd at least be given a chance to be responsible about delivering, and not always crack the whip by default, there's just no way you can ever have a healthy working environment.
spaetzleesser 4y ago
Exactly. Putting on ever more pressure while also disempowering people puts them in a psychological spit that leads to burnout.
vlunkr 4y ago
A huge problem I had to overcome was learning to leave work mentally every day. The online and WFH nature of software work makes it easy to feel like you're always on-call and feeling some low-level stress. This is a quick path to burnout for me. My advice to anyone in this situation is to be firm about not working outside your regular hours. If someone messages or emails when you're not working, don't respond until you're back on the clock, even disable notifications if that's a stress-trigger. Obviously actually being on-call is different. That needs to be an official policy, ideally spread across multiple devs so you're not on 24/7.
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
  Turn off all work devices after work hours.
- dsr_ 4y ago
  Since I started working from home, I have an alarm set for 4:50pm to remind me that 'work' ends in 10 minutes. I might choose to violate that deliberately, but not by accident.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bogomipz 4y ago
I have similar views on the OKRs. I am not even sure how they became so ubiquitous as a measuring stick. Did this come out of Scrum and just found a welcome place in general management speak? I'm also curious if anyone feels similarly about daily standup meetings and the hyperventilating over the Jira board? I feel like I've been in environments where the goal seems to perversely turn into having something to discuss at the next days standup meeting.
- piva00 4y ago
  Scrum never really had OKRs. I noticed OKRs and OKDs and whatever other flavour of it popping up after the big tech rise. Google and others were seeds of this style of delivery management, somehow this was taught in some MBA and when this generation of MBAs started to take reins of other companies it got spread around as gospel. I fucking hate it, it's overloaded with rituals that get repeated every quarter: workshops, planning sessions, vision/mission workshops, and so on and so forth. The worse is that never seems that anything has enough time to be done, in my experience roughly a month of each quarter is mentally spent by going through these motions, justifying work that needs to be done, doing discovery for what's upcoming (that needs to be done before planning season ends). Constantly switching contexts about what we're working right now with what work needs to be done in the future, every single fucking quarter. I'm getting extremely tired of this cycle, it's getting longer and longer to recover from each of these "planning seasons". P.S.: Not mentioning the variance in processes, each company you join has their own set of rituals and timelines for planning and so it'll take a few cycles of it until you figure out what's important and what I can tune off and give my mind a break.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    Ah, thanks for the detail regarding the origin of this. For some reason I just assumed it came out of some scrum cult type thing as the rise of that was also for around the time OKR became part of the lexicon. I completely agree. Are we just stuck with this then for the foreseeable future I wonder? It seems to be that there are enough people that share this sentiment that this whole overbearing process ritual has become largely performative and toxic.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
> So stop putting them under a lot of pressure. I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Pressure can be perceived even without expectations. I think especially junior developers have a hard time knowing which deadlines are actually important, and may tend to experience a much larger responsibility for the entire project than anyone expects of them. In part this may be down to a bad communication style from managers, a good manager shields the team from worrying about clouds on the horizon; but this isn't always the case. I've had people I've had to sit down and tell that this overtime they're putting in isn't expected of them, nobody asks this of them, it isn't their responsibility but the team got this, it's not worth burning out at age 24 over some sprint deliverable that's like just a cell in a spreadsheet that nobody really cares about.

spacemadness 4y ago

Anecdote time. As I’ve moved into larger companies and am shackled by OKRs, I am enjoying my work a lot less and feel under more pressure than ever but am getting less useful work done. It feels like a lack of trust and assumes the organization is run very efficiently and fairly—which I don’t think any company can truly claim. People just seem to adjust by gaming these systems instead of putting useful effort into their work.

twh270 4y ago
I agree fully with this. I'm currently at a small company (which has a different set of challenges), but my experience is that large employers come up with flavor-of-the-year useless metrics in an attempt to measure progress towards goals and productivity.
- senojsitruc 4y ago
  Google Plus. https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-page-just-tied-employee-bonuses-to-the-success-of-the-googles-social-strategy-2011-4?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-page-just-tied-employe...
hallway_monitor 4y ago
Moving to a small company is the only antidote, for the most part. Actually, pretty much everything is better at a small company. For anyone who's only worked at a mega corp or a "Unicorn" where working 60+ hours is expected, working with a small group of people who all know each other will change your life.
- chrsig 4y ago
  it can depend on the stage of life of the small company. I've been at my current company from it's series A, through a series B, a layoff, sale of one of it's IPs/customer bases, and ultimately sale to a holding company. I agree with your overall point -- working with a small group of people who all know each other is great. I've had the opportunity to work with some people for the better part of a decade, and having that kind history with coworkers can be a real boon for communication and planning. It's also much more impactful when a coworker decides to leave. The real shift towards a more sane work style happened after the acquisition by the holding company. It came with a layoff at the start, which was really disruptive. However, since then, there's been a huge focus on profitability rather than growth. Willingness to make big investments is much more conservative.
outworlder 4y ago
> As I’ve moved into larger companies and am shackled by OKRs, I am enjoying my work a lot less and feel under more pressure than ever but am getting less useful work done. Ditto. At this point I feel that spending my entire day writing emails (even though I'm on engineering) would not only look better but would meet OKRs, while getting zero actual useful work done. I hate this fad.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  This is precisely the cause of my burnout this month, at a huge aerospace company you’ve heard of. I felt like I wasn’t able to motivate myself to do the work, because I was incentivized to do what you described. I ended up doing both, poorly, but honestly I was able to make it a shockingly long time (I’m surprised I was the one to realize and decide to leave, no manager conversation yet).
jldugger 4y ago
> As I’ve moved into larger companies and am shackled by OKRs Try moving into a large company _without_ OKRs. How much redundancy do you need to buy to achieve your service reliability goals? Well, you can decide on any goal you want but management now has the right to declare the decision wrong post-hoc: Got an outage? Should have spent more Didn't have an outage? Why are we wasting all this money? And of course, by avoiding any public commitment like an OKR, they are somehow absolved of accountability in the matter.

twh270 4y ago

I'd shorten that to "Maybe it's time to admit corporations went too far pressuring the average worker". It took me a long time to realize it, but work/life balance in the U.S. is weighted far too heavily in favor of business, at the expense of the individual and their family and community.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
It's not just the US. Without going into the nuances of the US, things like burnout are severely on the rise among the younger crowds all over the world despite some of them working as much or less than before in several countries. Most of these countries are adopting American office concepts. More statistics, more pressure, more management / talks with management, more "work family", tighter interviews, you name it. All stuff that pressures the Average Joe who just wants to make a living. For SE, the majority of these jobs are best described as "gluing APIs together", nowhere near the prestigious "you really gotta want it!" jobs they are sold as. Now add to that while SE does earn above average in all of these countries, it isn't so luxurious as a non-senior that you could pick your nose and live super comfortably no matter which city you live in. So the pressure got worse and both intrinsic and extrinsic motivators are down. Add onto that a bunch of other societal problems. If anything, it's more surprising people aren't expecting half the populace to burn out at some point in life.
- outworlder 4y ago
  You start by arguing that it's not just the US, and then continue by saying that the rest of the world is adopting american practices, which is causing the issue. I'm confused.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    The former was referencing location, in that other western countries are already having the same problems. Partially due to adopting the latter culturally. However, American office culture is not the sole problem: a lot of people in EU wouldn't object to these office politics nearly as much if there was a luxurious total comp attached to it or an interesting job. They go through worse hoops just for those. That said, maybe it'd be more apt to say "Silicon Valley office culture".

y-c-o-m-b 4y ago

> So stop putting them under a lot of pressure. The second tip hints at this, but it only seems to be a reactionary measure. Maybe all this goalsetting, OKRs and such is exactly the problem with the industry, always having to feel pressured to an extreme by metrics and stats which effectively mean nothing, when most people just want to put in an honest day's work and progress. You nailed it. The entire article can be summed up by your statement. It's great they're acknowledging it, but putting corporate make-up on it is cringey; it almost comes off like we are the problem and not the other way around. I don't give a damn about "drinking the kool-aid" and I don't give a damn about your business theatrics nor the political drama that goes with it. Give me work to do and leave me alone to do it. That'll solve a lot of the burn-out.

wiz21c 4y ago
that's super right. Got first hand unfortunate experience. The simple thing is: please managers don't buy the work-hard-to-compete ethos. It's not because you can take it that others can or should.
kodah 4y ago
American Corporations drink their own kool-aid, which is probably why they can sit there and talk about what's wrong concisely without knowing what to do about it. The days of servant leadership, or leading from the front are gone in terms of management. Instead, they're a self-serving bunch. Engineers are effectively the lowest on the hierarchy and their happiness matters to no one in the chain because everyone is serving the link above them. If software ever does unionize I don't think it'll be over pay, it'll be over stuff like this.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- malfist 4y ago
  You have a very negative opinion about management. Please remember that managers are people too and they're (likely) trying their best too. Just as they give you feedback, it is often helpful to give upward feedback too. Especially if it's in the form of "I need you to do X to help me"

nrdgrrrl 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

outworlder 4y ago

> Maybe all this goalsetting, OKRs and such is exactly the problem with the industry, Yes, yes it is. That is also a symptom of a bigger problem: management doesn't really have to be useful for the company, they merely have to _appear_ to be. Exceptional management is nearly invisible, which is great for companies, bad for careers. The solution? Managers will make noise and a lot of it. Part of this requires crazy deadlines. If the ship is not creaking it's not being pushed hard enough. Attrition? Bad culture fit, we work hard, we play hard. "I delivered <project> months ahead of schedule" sounds way better than "I delivered it on time" - nevermind that the "delivered" project is a buggy mess noone uses and will require a lot more effort to get to an acceptable state. We should be praising progress. Not everything should be a 'sprint', it should be a 'march'. What's all the sprinting for? Most deadlines literally don't matter. Motivated teams that are able to perform their best work do matter. > when most people just want to put in an honest day's work and progress. This.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<< Exceptional management is nearly invisible, which is great for companies, bad for careers. The more I think about it, the more it aligns with my experiences so far. << Most deadlines literally don't matter. What?! Are you insane? What are we going to tell blue ribbon initiative committee? << Managers will make noise and a lot of it. Yup.
sirmarksalot 4y ago
> We should be praising progress. Not everything should be a 'sprint', it should be a 'march'. What's all the sprinting for? I'm of two minds on this statement. On the one hand, "sprint" isn't meant to be taken literally in the scrum metaphor, in that teams aren't supposed to be trying to cram in as much stuff as humanly possible. But at the same time, the idea of each two-week period needing to have concrete goals, and failure to meet those goals being a negative indicator, is a major issue. For me, the value of having deadlines, or something resembling a deadline, is to make it easier to get started. Once I've actually got the ball rolling, it's less important that the schedule actually resembles the plan, insofar as it doesn't affect other people. But my experience with scrum teams is that progress isn't seen as good enough. You have to execute on the plan, at least as far as scheduling is concerned, and cut corners if you have to. The issue is this rigid equivalency of plan = commitment, and therefore deviation from that plan = failure. No, a plan does not necessarily mean a commitment. A plan lets you get started without spending so much time in decision paralysis. Once you're moving, the real plan evolves.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

LegitShady 4y ago

You're not wrong. The problem is conflicting incentives. Managers are incentivized to create metrics, goals, deadlines, and performance structures that give them the feeling (really just a feeling often) of being able to measure and 'control' progress. The problem is the people accountable for all those things are living under the weight of all their KPIs and metrics. The more those measurements are reduced or made less important the easier it is to focus on just doing the work. But for the manager it becomes harder to state how good the process is, and what they need to do to stay on track.

jseban 4y ago

spaetzleesser 4y ago

Exactly. Putting on ever more pressure while also disempowering people puts them in a psychological spit that leads to burnout.

vlunkr 4y ago

A huge problem I had to overcome was learning to leave work mentally every day. The online and WFH nature of software work makes it easy to feel like you're always on-call and feeling some low-level stress. This is a quick path to burnout for me. My advice to anyone in this situation is to be firm about not working outside your regular hours. If someone messages or emails when you're not working, don't respond until you're back on the clock, even disable notifications if that's a stress-trigger. Obviously actually being on-call is different. That needs to be an official policy, ideally spread across multiple devs so you're not on 24/7.

spaetzleesser 4y ago
Turn off all work devices after work hours.
dsr_ 4y ago
Since I started working from home, I have an alarm set for 4:50pm to remind me that 'work' ends in 10 minutes. I might choose to violate that deliberately, but not by accident.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bogomipz 4y ago

I have similar views on the OKRs. I am not even sure how they became so ubiquitous as a measuring stick. Did this come out of Scrum and just found a welcome place in general management speak? I'm also curious if anyone feels similarly about daily standup meetings and the hyperventilating over the Jira board? I feel like I've been in environments where the goal seems to perversely turn into having something to discuss at the next days standup meeting.

piva00 4y ago
Scrum never really had OKRs. I noticed OKRs and OKDs and whatever other flavour of it popping up after the big tech rise. Google and others were seeds of this style of delivery management, somehow this was taught in some MBA and when this generation of MBAs started to take reins of other companies it got spread around as gospel. I fucking hate it, it's overloaded with rituals that get repeated every quarter: workshops, planning sessions, vision/mission workshops, and so on and so forth. The worse is that never seems that anything has enough time to be done, in my experience roughly a month of each quarter is mentally spent by going through these motions, justifying work that needs to be done, doing discovery for what's upcoming (that needs to be done before planning season ends). Constantly switching contexts about what we're working right now with what work needs to be done in the future, every single fucking quarter. I'm getting extremely tired of this cycle, it's getting longer and longer to recover from each of these "planning seasons". P.S.: Not mentioning the variance in processes, each company you join has their own set of rituals and timelines for planning and so it'll take a few cycles of it until you figure out what's important and what I can tune off and give my mind a break.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  Ah, thanks for the detail regarding the origin of this. For some reason I just assumed it came out of some scrum cult type thing as the rise of that was also for around the time OKR became part of the lexicon. I completely agree. Are we just stuck with this then for the foreseeable future I wonder? It seems to be that there are enough people that share this sentiment that this whole overbearing process ritual has become largely performative and toxic.

marginalia_nu 4y ago

> So stop putting them under a lot of pressure. I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Pressure can be perceived even without expectations. I think especially junior developers have a hard time knowing which deadlines are actually important, and may tend to experience a much larger responsibility for the entire project than anyone expects of them. In part this may be down to a bad communication style from managers, a good manager shields the team from worrying about clouds on the horizon; but this isn't always the case. I've had people I've had to sit down and tell that this overtime they're putting in isn't expected of them, nobody asks this of them, it isn't their responsibility but the team got this, it's not worth burning out at age 24 over some sprint deliverable that's like just a cell in a spreadsheet that nobody really cares about.