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They pay well because demand for engineers is high. Cost of living is high because engineers have bought all the stock in the area. You've got the order backwa

They pay well because demand for engineers is high. Cost of living is high because engineers have bought all the stock in the area. You've got the order backwards.

dhdkdbehsgsv 4y ago
Its a cycle. It’s undeniable that Bay Area salaries are higher than elsewhere. They pay what they need to pay to get good engineers _in that location_. I’d venture to guess that Apple employees in other countries (or even other parts of the US) make less.
r00fus 4y ago
You are completely missing out on the market impact of large corporate (Blackrock) and overseas investors.
asdfasgasdgasdg 4y ago
If they find that it's hard to attract talent, they'll also pay well for remote. But if they don't, angrily worded letters are not going to be the thing that makes the difference. People are going to have to start voting with their feet before Apple will see the supposed error of their compensation formula.
- turtledove 4y ago
  Many companies are. Traditional, old school companies like Google and Apple are slow to move here, but many tech companies are moving to a "we pay you your value, not your cost of living".
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 4y ago
    I've only seen one (Airbnb) but perhaps there are others I've missed. I don't think we will be able to know how it is going to play out for a couple of years. They may validly intend to do what they say today, but market forces may ultimately force them to change their approach. I'm happy to wait and see personally.
    - hezralig 4y ago
      Hasn't Gitlab successfully been a remote-first company for years before the pandemic? https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/resources/ https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/resource...
paxys 4y ago
There's no forward or backward. It's a feedback loop.
ensan 4y ago
"They pay well because demand for engineers is high" Do they pay their teams in Canada, India, China, etc. as much as SV? No.
- dwaltrip 4y ago
  Lower barriers to communication and the building of shared conceptual models of the domain will make a team much more effective. An engineering team in the same timezone whose members have a similar general context for how they approach work will be able to do all of that more easily. In my mind, that explains much of the difference. Of course, there are fully-remote teams and companies that work hard to overcome some of those obstacles, but it seems to be non-trivial to do so successfully.
kurupt213 4y ago
They are already starting adjust salaries for cost of living in the zip codes where remote workers live. They still pay more because the field is competitive, but companies (including Facebook and Google) aren’t paying Palo Alto salaries to remote workers in low cost of living areas.

They pay well because demand for engineers is high. Cost of living is high because engineers have bought all the stock in the area. You've got the order backwards.

dhdkdbehsgsv 4y ago

Its a cycle. It’s undeniable that Bay Area salaries are higher than elsewhere. They pay what they need to pay to get good engineers _in that location_. I’d venture to guess that Apple employees in other countries (or even other parts of the US) make less.

r00fus 4y ago

You are completely missing out on the market impact of large corporate (Blackrock) and overseas investors.

asdfasgasdgasdg 4y ago

If they find that it's hard to attract talent, they'll also pay well for remote. But if they don't, angrily worded letters are not going to be the thing that makes the difference. People are going to have to start voting with their feet before Apple will see the supposed error of their compensation formula.

turtledove 4y ago
Many companies are. Traditional, old school companies like Google and Apple are slow to move here, but many tech companies are moving to a "we pay you your value, not your cost of living".
- asdfasgasdgasdg 4y ago
  I've only seen one (Airbnb) but perhaps there are others I've missed. I don't think we will be able to know how it is going to play out for a couple of years. They may validly intend to do what they say today, but market forces may ultimately force them to change their approach. I'm happy to wait and see personally.
  - hezralig 4y ago
    Hasn't Gitlab successfully been a remote-first company for years before the pandemic? https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/resources/ https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/resource...

paxys 4y ago

There's no forward or backward. It's a feedback loop.

ensan 4y ago

"They pay well because demand for engineers is high" Do they pay their teams in Canada, India, China, etc. as much as SV? No.

dwaltrip 4y ago
Lower barriers to communication and the building of shared conceptual models of the domain will make a team much more effective. An engineering team in the same timezone whose members have a similar general context for how they approach work will be able to do all of that more easily. In my mind, that explains much of the difference. Of course, there are fully-remote teams and companies that work hard to overcome some of those obstacles, but it seems to be non-trivial to do so successfully.

kurupt213 4y ago

They are already starting adjust salaries for cost of living in the zip codes where remote workers live. They still pay more because the field is competitive, but companies (including Facebook and Google) aren’t paying Palo Alto salaries to remote workers in low cost of living areas.