4 ms·

>"Stop whining and vote with your feet." If this is a deal breaker, yes. But this kind of approach is a last resort. Why shouldn't someone try to influence com

>"Stop whining and vote with your feet." If this is a deal breaker, yes. But this kind of approach is a last resort. Why shouldn't someone try to influence company policy before taking such a drastic step?

scarface74 4y ago
What’s drastic about leaving a job? The average tenure of a software engineer at any major tech company is 3 years. I never thought it was a “drastic” step to change jobs when one wasn’t what I like - 8 jobs and counting including six since 2008.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  How drastic it is depends on the personality and living arrangements of the people involved. I know it's a common stereotype that developers hop jobs frequently, but there are also plenty of developers who do not. I know many such people at my current employer. I happen to be very content working there despite knowing I could make more if I went somewhere else and then jumped ship again and again.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    It’s not a stereotype. It’s statistics. https://developerpitstop.com/how-long-do-software-engineers-stay-at-a-job/ https://developerpitstop.com/how-long-do-software-engineers-... The people who want to work from home and are being forced to work in the office, by definition aren’t “content”. As far as the living arrangements, if the impetus for you leaving is to find remote work, how will changing to another job change your living situation?
    - BitwiseFool 4y ago
      >"The people who want to work from home and are being forced to work in the office, by definition aren’t “content”." I feel like being "content" involves a lot of other factors and trying to determine if someone is content means looking at other aspects of the job holistically. I've always detested yearly evaluations and the 'song and dance' one must do to write "corpo-speak" about their achievements and goals. Yet, that consistent displeasure has never outweighed the work life balance I've enjoyed so far. My concern is that in your framework I would be considered by definition, not content. >"if the impetus for you leaving is to find remote work, how will changing to another job change your living situation?" I don't see jobs as fungible. While you might be able to WFH the new company will have different benefits such as potentially worse health insurance, compensation that isn't as good, or fewer paid days off. You might end up working remotely for a company in another timezone and that might mean you cannot drop your child off at school anymore. That kind of thing.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        If you work for any company that offers health insurance, there is a pretty high bar set by the ACA for employers that make the difference in health insurance benefits different at most a few thousand dollars. You can usually negotiate the difference by asking for more money. Even if that’s not the case, being able to work remotely means you can choose to work in a lower cost of living area - ie basically any place away from Apple’s headquarters will be cheaper. It would also be a very regressive company - one that I have never worked at in 25 years - that would frown on you saying “I’m not available during $x hours when I need to drop my kid off to school. That’s the benefit of working remotely. You have a meeting at 9:00 and can’t get home in time? Pull out your cellular equipped tablet and join the meeting I once left home at 9:00 AM during a workday to see my parents 4 hours away. But it took a whole day after stopping along the way to attend meetings from my cellular iPad. I logged in when I got to my parents and finished my workday. I have meetings scheduled with someone on the opposite coast at 7:00 ET? I log out at 5, walk to the next room to my home gym, exercise and log back in at 7 to have the meeting. We are very much a calendar culture in my org.
      - LosWochosWeek 4y ago
        > I don't see jobs as fungible. Very odd, seeing how you literally posted very fungibale things right after that. You know that you can just negotiate those things and only jump ship once you've found something that satisfies you. If you wanted to make your point, you should've talked about actual barely-fungible things when switching jobs, i.e. if you're going to do the work you've been promised, your managers and company culture, etc etc etc
azemetre 4y ago
Because if the CEO of a trillion dollar company wants people in the office, it's very likely that you will convince them otherwise. Tim Cook has tremendous influence over his company, these employees do not. Maybe if they had a union there would be some bargaining power but as it stands they can't do anything outside of leaving. Happy to be proven wrong here, but labor doesn't have much power in the US; especially when it's labor against a trillion dollar company.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  I can guarantee you that “Nothing can ever be better, so why try?” will definitely not work to change policies. But it would make one a stereotypical Democratic senator.
  - LosWochosWeek 4y ago
    ... Voting with your feet is trying. Also keep your snarky (and highly boring) political stance to Reddit, whenever possible (always).
  - ensan 4y ago
    But is writing a (somewhat pathetic) open letter really trying? Perhaps organizing a strike would convey more meaning, although I don't see that happening at all.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes, trying means finding another job,
- evandale 4y ago
  >Happy to be proven wrong here, but labor doesn't have much power in the US I hope you're proven wrong too. I like to think this pandemic has accelerated progress on the worker's rights front. I want to believe workers as a collective have realized they're bigger than the companies they work for. This fight against Apple should be really interesting either way.

scarface74 4y ago

What’s drastic about leaving a job? The average tenure of a software engineer at any major tech company is 3 years. I never thought it was a “drastic” step to change jobs when one wasn’t what I like - 8 jobs and counting including six since 2008.

BitwiseFool 4y ago
How drastic it is depends on the personality and living arrangements of the people involved. I know it's a common stereotype that developers hop jobs frequently, but there are also plenty of developers who do not. I know many such people at my current employer. I happen to be very content working there despite knowing I could make more if I went somewhere else and then jumped ship again and again.
- scarface74 4y ago
  It’s not a stereotype. It’s statistics. https://developerpitstop.com/how-long-do-software-engineers-stay-at-a-job/ https://developerpitstop.com/how-long-do-software-engineers-... The people who want to work from home and are being forced to work in the office, by definition aren’t “content”. As far as the living arrangements, if the impetus for you leaving is to find remote work, how will changing to another job change your living situation?
  - BitwiseFool 4y ago
    >"The people who want to work from home and are being forced to work in the office, by definition aren’t “content”." I feel like being "content" involves a lot of other factors and trying to determine if someone is content means looking at other aspects of the job holistically. I've always detested yearly evaluations and the 'song and dance' one must do to write "corpo-speak" about their achievements and goals. Yet, that consistent displeasure has never outweighed the work life balance I've enjoyed so far. My concern is that in your framework I would be considered by definition, not content. >"if the impetus for you leaving is to find remote work, how will changing to another job change your living situation?" I don't see jobs as fungible. While you might be able to WFH the new company will have different benefits such as potentially worse health insurance, compensation that isn't as good, or fewer paid days off. You might end up working remotely for a company in another timezone and that might mean you cannot drop your child off at school anymore. That kind of thing.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      If you work for any company that offers health insurance, there is a pretty high bar set by the ACA for employers that make the difference in health insurance benefits different at most a few thousand dollars. You can usually negotiate the difference by asking for more money. Even if that’s not the case, being able to work remotely means you can choose to work in a lower cost of living area - ie basically any place away from Apple’s headquarters will be cheaper. It would also be a very regressive company - one that I have never worked at in 25 years - that would frown on you saying “I’m not available during $x hours when I need to drop my kid off to school. That’s the benefit of working remotely. You have a meeting at 9:00 and can’t get home in time? Pull out your cellular equipped tablet and join the meeting I once left home at 9:00 AM during a workday to see my parents 4 hours away. But it took a whole day after stopping along the way to attend meetings from my cellular iPad. I logged in when I got to my parents and finished my workday. I have meetings scheduled with someone on the opposite coast at 7:00 ET? I log out at 5, walk to the next room to my home gym, exercise and log back in at 7 to have the meeting. We are very much a calendar culture in my org.
    - LosWochosWeek 4y ago
      > I don't see jobs as fungible. Very odd, seeing how you literally posted very fungibale things right after that. You know that you can just negotiate those things and only jump ship once you've found something that satisfies you. If you wanted to make your point, you should've talked about actual barely-fungible things when switching jobs, i.e. if you're going to do the work you've been promised, your managers and company culture, etc etc etc

azemetre 4y ago

Because if the CEO of a trillion dollar company wants people in the office, it's very likely that you will convince them otherwise. Tim Cook has tremendous influence over his company, these employees do not. Maybe if they had a union there would be some bargaining power but as it stands they can't do anything outside of leaving. Happy to be proven wrong here, but labor doesn't have much power in the US; especially when it's labor against a trillion dollar company.

KerrAvon 4y ago
I can guarantee you that “Nothing can ever be better, so why try?” will definitely not work to change policies. But it would make one a stereotypical Democratic senator.
- LosWochosWeek 4y ago
  ... Voting with your feet is trying. Also keep your snarky (and highly boring) political stance to Reddit, whenever possible (always).
- ensan 4y ago
  But is writing a (somewhat pathetic) open letter really trying? Perhaps organizing a strike would convey more meaning, although I don't see that happening at all.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes, trying means finding another job,
evandale 4y ago
>Happy to be proven wrong here, but labor doesn't have much power in the US I hope you're proven wrong too. I like to think this pandemic has accelerated progress on the worker's rights front. I want to believe workers as a collective have realized they're bigger than the companies they work for. This fight against Apple should be really interesting either way.