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Onyx violates GPL by not releasing their source code. So, I won’t buy their products.

by wfhordie 4y ago

malfist 4y ago
How? Honest question, this is the first I've heard of that.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- npongratz 4y ago
  Not primary source, but includes link to source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_Boox#GPL_Compliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_Boox#GPL_Compliance
  - robinsoh 4y ago
    Onyx's CEO seems to be claiming that they're GPL compliant at around 4:50 in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Q5hXGfZPo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Q5hXGfZPo
    - wfhordie 4y ago
      Did she point to an active link to the source code? Without that, it doesn’t mean anything.
      - robinsoh 4y ago
        If you're a product owner, why not ask her for it? I assume you already asked since you implied they are not GPL compliant. Why not share the data for that and make it public? I'm sure that would get carried by many media channels. You could even get an injunction against them selling products into Europe if you enforce it. Asking me, a non-Onyx owner, here on HN simply doesn't achieve anything.
        wfhordie 4y ago
        I didn’t imply that they are not GPL compliant. I stated it directly. I’m not interested in onyx’s products because they are a shitty company. I don’t have the time, energy, resources or motivations to improve a shitty company. I do have the time, energy, resources and motivation to share this singular fact with others so they can make their own choice about which companies they support.
        robinsoh 4y ago
        > I didn’t imply that they are not GPL compliant. I stated it directly. That's good. It would be even better to show that they are GPL non-compliant by showing their response and confirming they're not willing to comply. As you said, you're not able to, and that's fine, I'm just saying it would be even better if you could. > I do have the time, energy, resources and motivation to share this singular fact with others so they can make their own choice about which companies they support. That's fine.
        chaostheory 4y ago
        The burden of proof is on Onyx, and not some random commenter who mentioned that there's no proof that they're GPL compliant. No one can seem to find a link to the source code. Maybe Onyx should make it easier to find?
        robinsoh 4y ago
        > The burden of proof is on Onyx, and not some random commenter who mentioned that there's no proof that they're GPL compliant. I agree with you that Onyx is likely in violation of the GPL. That said, the way I'm used to things is; the person who alleges a crime is committed is the one that has to show evidence. Onyx doesn't have to prove they're innocent. The prosecution has to prove they're guilty. So if we want to see Onyx punished, then we need to find someone who owns an Onyx that has asked Onyx to comply with the GPL and provide source, and showing that they refused to do so. At that point, they would immediately be non-compliant and thus susceptible to many injunctions, meaning their products could be stopped at the border. Pretty sure they'd pay attention to that.
    - tadfisher 4y ago
      Onyx's customer support stating they cannot supply source code: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hl09g7/onyx_boox_chinese_company_will_not_share_their/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hl09g7/onyx_boox_chi... https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/hsn7kx/onyx_using_recent_antichina_movement_as_excuse_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/hsn7kx/onyx_usin...
anon2020dot00 4y ago
I don't get this argument. If there is a legal violation, then just file a court-case or ban the product like with Huawei? For me as a customer, I just appreciate that I can enjoy a well-made and advanced tablet that meets my needs.
- danielbarla 4y ago
  A company is willfully behaving unethically, and someone chooses to vote with their wallet - I'm surprised that this is an argument you don't get. Granted, different people have different ideologies, triggers, etc, but the principle is fairly common.
  - anon2020dot00 4y ago
    The dispute is in who is in the wrong and I believe only a judge can determine the facts. I presume innocence until proven guilty. For example, with Google vs Oracle on the Java API usage, Apple vs Epic Games on the App Store or even with Depp vs Amber Heard, there is no clear black-and-white. Especially with so-called GPL violations (which seems to be a grey area), there is even accusations that Github Co-Pilot is in violation, and so, I think best thing to do is for a judge or for a legal authority to make a decision instead of cancel culture.
    - danielbarla 4y ago
      Fair enough. I am also generally against jumping to conclusions and mob justice, though I am not sure if a GPL2 violation is such a gray area in this format. It's a device shipped to a user, and the license states they need to be provided with the source on request. It's something the company should have addressed in the intervening time.
    - mtlynch 4y ago
      It makes sense to assume innocence until proven guilty when the facts are murky, but this seems to be straightforward. They modified GPL code and refused to honor the license by releasing the source. If you witnessed someone snatch a wallet out of a child's hand and run away, you can reasonably conclude the snatcher is a thief. You wouldn't have to wait for a legal authority to tell you what you witnessed was a crime.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
Darn. That's not even just a problem of principle; not having kernel source is gonna make it a right pain (if not impossible) to port a replacement ROM and keep the hardware updated after the manufacturer drops support.
stratosmacker 4y ago
What's the proper course of action for folks like us? Report them to a GPL violations hotline? I don't ask in jest, I just was arguing with CAT (yes the heavy equipment people) about getting ROM/sources for their Android ROM, which they've stated they won't even ship the .bin out of the company.
- rchaud 4y ago
  GPL works on the honor system because its not a life or death matter that necessitates external enforcement. There are lots of things we in society used to do simply because it was the right thing to do. Nowadays everything seems to need to be nailed down by the letter of the law in order for people to abide by them.

Onyx violates GPL by not releasing their source code. So, I won’t buy their products.

malfist 4y ago

How? Honest question, this is the first I've heard of that.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
npongratz 4y ago
Not primary source, but includes link to source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_Boox#GPL_Compliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_Boox#GPL_Compliance
- robinsoh 4y ago
  Onyx's CEO seems to be claiming that they're GPL compliant at around 4:50 in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Q5hXGfZPo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Q5hXGfZPo
  - wfhordie 4y ago
    Did she point to an active link to the source code? Without that, it doesn’t mean anything.
    - robinsoh 4y ago
      If you're a product owner, why not ask her for it? I assume you already asked since you implied they are not GPL compliant. Why not share the data for that and make it public? I'm sure that would get carried by many media channels. You could even get an injunction against them selling products into Europe if you enforce it. Asking me, a non-Onyx owner, here on HN simply doesn't achieve anything.
      - wfhordie 4y ago
        I didn’t imply that they are not GPL compliant. I stated it directly. I’m not interested in onyx’s products because they are a shitty company. I don’t have the time, energy, resources or motivations to improve a shitty company. I do have the time, energy, resources and motivation to share this singular fact with others so they can make their own choice about which companies they support.
        robinsoh 4y ago
        > I didn’t imply that they are not GPL compliant. I stated it directly. That's good. It would be even better to show that they are GPL non-compliant by showing their response and confirming they're not willing to comply. As you said, you're not able to, and that's fine, I'm just saying it would be even better if you could. > I do have the time, energy, resources and motivation to share this singular fact with others so they can make their own choice about which companies they support. That's fine.
        chaostheory 4y ago
        The burden of proof is on Onyx, and not some random commenter who mentioned that there's no proof that they're GPL compliant. No one can seem to find a link to the source code. Maybe Onyx should make it easier to find?
        robinsoh 4y ago
        > The burden of proof is on Onyx, and not some random commenter who mentioned that there's no proof that they're GPL compliant. I agree with you that Onyx is likely in violation of the GPL. That said, the way I'm used to things is; the person who alleges a crime is committed is the one that has to show evidence. Onyx doesn't have to prove they're innocent. The prosecution has to prove they're guilty. So if we want to see Onyx punished, then we need to find someone who owns an Onyx that has asked Onyx to comply with the GPL and provide source, and showing that they refused to do so. At that point, they would immediately be non-compliant and thus susceptible to many injunctions, meaning their products could be stopped at the border. Pretty sure they'd pay attention to that.
  - tadfisher 4y ago
    Onyx's customer support stating they cannot supply source code: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hl09g7/onyx_boox_chinese_company_will_not_share_their/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hl09g7/onyx_boox_chi... https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/hsn7kx/onyx_using_recent_antichina_movement_as_excuse_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/hsn7kx/onyx_usin...

anon2020dot00 4y ago

I don't get this argument. If there is a legal violation, then just file a court-case or ban the product like with Huawei? For me as a customer, I just appreciate that I can enjoy a well-made and advanced tablet that meets my needs.

danielbarla 4y ago
A company is willfully behaving unethically, and someone chooses to vote with their wallet - I'm surprised that this is an argument you don't get. Granted, different people have different ideologies, triggers, etc, but the principle is fairly common.
- anon2020dot00 4y ago
  The dispute is in who is in the wrong and I believe only a judge can determine the facts. I presume innocence until proven guilty. For example, with Google vs Oracle on the Java API usage, Apple vs Epic Games on the App Store or even with Depp vs Amber Heard, there is no clear black-and-white. Especially with so-called GPL violations (which seems to be a grey area), there is even accusations that Github Co-Pilot is in violation, and so, I think best thing to do is for a judge or for a legal authority to make a decision instead of cancel culture.
  - danielbarla 4y ago
    Fair enough. I am also generally against jumping to conclusions and mob justice, though I am not sure if a GPL2 violation is such a gray area in this format. It's a device shipped to a user, and the license states they need to be provided with the source on request. It's something the company should have addressed in the intervening time.
  - mtlynch 4y ago
    It makes sense to assume innocence until proven guilty when the facts are murky, but this seems to be straightforward. They modified GPL code and refused to honor the license by releasing the source. If you witnessed someone snatch a wallet out of a child's hand and run away, you can reasonably conclude the snatcher is a thief. You wouldn't have to wait for a legal authority to tell you what you witnessed was a crime.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

Darn. That's not even just a problem of principle; not having kernel source is gonna make it a right pain (if not impossible) to port a replacement ROM and keep the hardware updated after the manufacturer drops support.

stratosmacker 4y ago

What's the proper course of action for folks like us? Report them to a GPL violations hotline? I don't ask in jest, I just was arguing with CAT (yes the heavy equipment people) about getting ROM/sources for their Android ROM, which they've stated they won't even ship the .bin out of the company.

rchaud 4y ago
GPL works on the honor system because its not a life or death matter that necessitates external enforcement. There are lots of things we in society used to do simply because it was the right thing to do. Nowadays everything seems to need to be nailed down by the letter of the law in order for people to abide by them.