4 ms·

I agree, but I think it's hard for us non-farmers to grasp the scale of industrial agriculture. I would love it we switched over to another way of doing things,

I agree, but I think it's hard for us non-farmers to grasp the scale of industrial agriculture. I would love it we switched over to another way of doing things, but with 8 billion people, there is no feasible way back to an earlier, organic way of life. How are we going to feed another 2 billion people let alone those that we have without fossil fuel inputs? Maybe biotech will save us, but I am skeptical.

myshpa 4y ago
Stop eating cows & dairy. Immediately you've reduced the scale by 75%. If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares [https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets]. Stop employing people in bullshit jobs. Immediately you've got 75% workforce on basic income, and I think some of them would like to work on small scale local farms. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_agriculture] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income] We already grow food for 10 milliard (thousand millions for our obscurant us friends) people. Problem is poverty and inequality, not scarcity. [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/world-hunger_b_1463429 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/world-hunger_b_1463429]
- guessbest 4y ago
  Cows make fertilizer through manure. > https://www.finegardening.com/project-guides/gardening-basics/fertilizing-the-old-fashioned-way-with-manure https://www.finegardening.com/project-guides/gardening-basic...
  - myshpa 4y ago
    Thank you. Yes, they do. But they are pretty inefficient manure factories [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/land-use-kcal-poore https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/land-use-kcal-poore]. We even have 8 milliards of humans producing manure, which we currently (mostly) flush to the sea [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil]. And if we do use it, we do it wrongly [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/22/i-dont-know-how-well-survive-the-farmers-facing-ruin-in-americas-forever-chemicals-crisis https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/22/i-dont-k...]. We have to learn how to use what we have (atmosphere, rhizosphere, pigs, poultry, humans), that what does not destroy forests and wildlife (cows), and avoid that that kills and poisons the nature (pesticides & herbicides). Then we have a chance.
- ephbit 4y ago
  I agree. There's another thing that comes to my mind, when people suggest the adoption of a plant-based diet. Protein quality [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_quality#Protein_sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_quality#Protein_source...] Why? In our modern society where many people require less calories than our ancestors, because most don't do as much physically intensive labour, it's somewhat tricky to get enough protein from food _without_ taking in too many calories. Yes, plants do contain protein. But sort the above linked table for "complete protein" and you'll see of the 9 "complete protein" foods, only 5 are plant foods. And of those 5, only Quinoa appears to have no limiting amino acid. It seems that animals have had an important role in recent times of concentrating plant protein to levels such that humans can get enough protein without taking in more calories than they require per their lifestyles. Let people who are used to meat/dairy diets adopt plant-based diets and I wouldn't be surprised if this leads to more of them becoming overweight. Imo it's a good thing when people try to eat less meat/dairy but they shouldn't think it's an easy thing to do that comes without caveats. David Raubenheimer is said to have conducted an experiment where people's behaviour showed that protein content is what disproportionately determines how much people eat until they feel saturated. Some references: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0195666312001699?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01956... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/obr.12131 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/obr.12131
  - myshpa 4y ago
    > Let people who are used to meat/dairy diets adopt plant-based diets and I wouldn't be surprised if this leads to more of them becoming overweight. I think that the exact opposite is true. Most new vegans lose weight quickly. There are no overweight fruitarians (imho - not my cup of tea). And not many vegans. But there are many ways how to do things - if you're eating a lot of fats, processed foods, junk food ... you'll be overweight, vegan or not. Also, you can't replace meat/dairy with single protein source (e.g. tofu) and think that you're ok. That's not the way it works with the plants. For me vegan diet means whole foods, minimum fats, as diverse diet as possible, almost no junk/processed food, 30-50% raw vegetables. It's not easy to gain weight this way. > Imo it's a good thing when people try to eat less meat/dairy but they shouldn't think it's an easy thing to do that comes without caveats. You're making it sound scary :) It is easy, certainly not hard, but you're right, new vegans have some things to learn. The only supplement you'll certainly need is vitamin B12. In the end what you'll want is fruits, vegetables and lentils of various kind. If you have a diverse diet, you'll have no problems. Yes, it means trying (a lot of) new things and recipes and some learning (how to substitute meat/dairy with plant-based alternatives), but it's not hard and in the end it's very satisfying process. I'm always hunting for new recipes. > David Raubenheimer is said to have conducted an experiment where people's behaviour showed that protein content is what disproportionately determines how much people eat until they feel saturated. Yes, lentils & beans. Satiety guaranteed :)

myshpa 4y ago

Stop eating cows & dairy. Immediately you've reduced the scale by 75%. If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares [https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets]. Stop employing people in bullshit jobs. Immediately you've got 75% workforce on basic income, and I think some of them would like to work on small scale local farms. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_agriculture] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income] We already grow food for 10 milliard (thousand millions for our obscurant us friends) people. Problem is poverty and inequality, not scarcity. [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/world-hunger_b_1463429 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/world-hunger_b_1463429]

guessbest 4y ago
Cows make fertilizer through manure. > https://www.finegardening.com/project-guides/gardening-basics/fertilizing-the-old-fashioned-way-with-manure https://www.finegardening.com/project-guides/gardening-basic...
- myshpa 4y ago
  Thank you. Yes, they do. But they are pretty inefficient manure factories [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/land-use-kcal-poore https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/land-use-kcal-poore]. We even have 8 milliards of humans producing manure, which we currently (mostly) flush to the sea [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil]. And if we do use it, we do it wrongly [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/22/i-dont-know-how-well-survive-the-farmers-facing-ruin-in-americas-forever-chemicals-crisis https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/22/i-dont-k...]. We have to learn how to use what we have (atmosphere, rhizosphere, pigs, poultry, humans), that what does not destroy forests and wildlife (cows), and avoid that that kills and poisons the nature (pesticides & herbicides). Then we have a chance.
ephbit 4y ago
I agree. There's another thing that comes to my mind, when people suggest the adoption of a plant-based diet. Protein quality [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_quality#Protein_sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_quality#Protein_source...] Why? In our modern society where many people require less calories than our ancestors, because most don't do as much physically intensive labour, it's somewhat tricky to get enough protein from food _without_ taking in too many calories. Yes, plants do contain protein. But sort the above linked table for "complete protein" and you'll see of the 9 "complete protein" foods, only 5 are plant foods. And of those 5, only Quinoa appears to have no limiting amino acid. It seems that animals have had an important role in recent times of concentrating plant protein to levels such that humans can get enough protein without taking in more calories than they require per their lifestyles. Let people who are used to meat/dairy diets adopt plant-based diets and I wouldn't be surprised if this leads to more of them becoming overweight. Imo it's a good thing when people try to eat less meat/dairy but they shouldn't think it's an easy thing to do that comes without caveats. David Raubenheimer is said to have conducted an experiment where people's behaviour showed that protein content is what disproportionately determines how much people eat until they feel saturated. Some references: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0195666312001699?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01956... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/obr.12131 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/obr.12131
- myshpa 4y ago
  > Let people who are used to meat/dairy diets adopt plant-based diets and I wouldn't be surprised if this leads to more of them becoming overweight. I think that the exact opposite is true. Most new vegans lose weight quickly. There are no overweight fruitarians (imho - not my cup of tea). And not many vegans. But there are many ways how to do things - if you're eating a lot of fats, processed foods, junk food ... you'll be overweight, vegan or not. Also, you can't replace meat/dairy with single protein source (e.g. tofu) and think that you're ok. That's not the way it works with the plants. For me vegan diet means whole foods, minimum fats, as diverse diet as possible, almost no junk/processed food, 30-50% raw vegetables. It's not easy to gain weight this way. > Imo it's a good thing when people try to eat less meat/dairy but they shouldn't think it's an easy thing to do that comes without caveats. You're making it sound scary :) It is easy, certainly not hard, but you're right, new vegans have some things to learn. The only supplement you'll certainly need is vitamin B12. In the end what you'll want is fruits, vegetables and lentils of various kind. If you have a diverse diet, you'll have no problems. Yes, it means trying (a lot of) new things and recipes and some learning (how to substitute meat/dairy with plant-based alternatives), but it's not hard and in the end it's very satisfying process. I'm always hunting for new recipes. > David Raubenheimer is said to have conducted an experiment where people's behaviour showed that protein content is what disproportionately determines how much people eat until they feel saturated. Yes, lentils & beans. Satiety guaranteed :)