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I'm all for renewable power and environmentally sustainable technologies. This includes Solar, Beach, Wind power and Nuclear power. Preferably Hydrogen fuel cel
by jp0d 4y ago
I'm all for renewable power and environmentally sustainable technologies. This includes Solar, Beach, Wind power and Nuclear power. Preferably Hydrogen fuel cell cars over battery powered cars (purely for less batter and less toxic material to recycle and also logistically more feasible for long distance driving). We Australians need to raise awareness about its effectiveness. The new compact fusion reactor designs from the UK are quite exciting. It can power entire Australia and create a lot of jobs. It's sad that we aren't doing enough in that space.
- wumpus 4y agoIt's a shame that so many people are still pushing hydrogen for individual vehicles despite its total failure in the marketplace... despite significant subsidies.
- ncmncm 4y agoHydrogen fueled cars could be substantially more energy-efficient than battery-electric cars, but it doesn't matter much, because energy is very quickly getting cheaper, so the point where it simply doesn't matter.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoThey cannot be even half as efficient - the process of electrolysis is only 40% efficient, then hydrogen must be compressed to insane pressure (which can require up to 20% of the enrgy contained withing) and transporting across the country. Only like 25% of energy you started with ever arrives to the fuel station
- Sinidir 4y agoIts actually around 70-80% efficient depending on method. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#Efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#Efficien... Not that this changes the picture of hydrogen powered personal vehicles. Still the only viable option for grid level seasonal storage.
- ncmncm 4y agoHydrogen is very, very far from the only viable long-term storage. Liquified ammonia will also be popular. But we don't need any seasonal storage at all, just as we don't have seasonal storage of oil. We only need enough storage to hold out until a shipment of LH2 or LNH3 arrives from the tropics. Efficiency of H2 needs to fold in the cost of getting the power back out: Cf. "round-trip efficiency". But as I said, it doesn't matter very much, anymore, since generation is getting so cheap. Gasoline engines were never efficient, but few have cared much about that. Hydrogen won't, in any case, be "transported to the fuel station". It will be made right on the spot, or just down the street. And, won't be compressed, but will be poured in and allowed to boil up to pressure. That said, cars will be using batteries for the foreseeable future. In 20 years, H2 might get another chance, if batteries don't improve enough. Which seems unlikely.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago"It will be made right on the spot, or just down the street. And, won't be compressed, but will be poured in and allowed to boil up to pressure." Are the efficient machines you are talking about affordable and portable enough to be locally owned? Also you are talking about hydrogen being poured in - so that would be cryogenic cooling, right? that incurrs an energy cost as well?
- ncmncm 4y agoYes, liquifying hydrogen also consumes energy. But by the time we are doing that on every street corner, the whole grid will be driven from renewables, and joules will be very cheap vs. other concerns. In particular, the LH2 will be banked during peak generation time, so almost free.
- ben_w 4y agoThe hydrogen path is less energy efficient than the battery path, so it’s only useful if you have really cheap electricity. If the batteries themselves were to remain expensive even as the electricity to charge them/electrolyse water became cheap, I can imagine a scenario where the lifetime cost difference between batteries and hydrogen tanks might be more than the cost of the energy wasted as heat by making the hydrogen. I don’t think this will happen now. The same dynamic on a slightly smaller scale means I can also believe that hydrogen cars could be a Vimes’ Boot: low purchase cost, high running cost, so poor people have them because they can’t afford the cheaper option.
- jp0d 4y agoIt's been pointed out that Hydrogen fuel cell is less energy efficient in its current form. It's true and it'll probably needs a lot more research before it's viable and is competitive against battery powered cars.
- _hypx 4y agoHydrogen will be the future of cars. It is the only one that is sustainable. EVs are themselves the result of massive government subsidies and legal mandates. It is very likely a failed product without those market distortions as very few people can justify paying $45k for a small car and $60k for a large one.
- ncmncm 4y agoThere will be no compact fusion power. Money put into that is money wasted that could have been spent on something that has a chance of making a difference. Likewise, nukes: a dollar plowed into nukes generates, many years later, much less power than a dollar of renewables that start producing immediately. You spend on coal the whole time while the nuke is being built, and the amount you have spent just on coal, by then, would have bought as much renewable generating capacity as your nuke.