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California seems more popular than it is because it feels like practically the entire state is zoned for single family homes. If it had sane housing policy it w

by TimPC 4y ago

California seems more popular than it is because it feels like practically the entire state is zoned for single family homes. If it had sane housing policy it would be doing a far better job relative to whatever demand it has on that front. Most states have more slightly more sane zoning so would be less badly hit by most of the problems that directly result from California’s extreme form of NIMBYism.

thghtihadanacct 4y ago
As someone that is stuck out here already with dwindling resources ... what obligation have I to help provide more houses to encourage growth in a resource poor environment?
- marssaxman 4y ago
  Who's asking you to help? All you need to do is mind your own business on your own property, and leave other people alone to build the housing they need on theirs.
wwweston 4y ago
I've watching some municipalities hit their geographic constraints in a few different states for a while now, and what I think I've noticed is that almost nobody gets higher density construction ahead of demand -- if there is anywhere that actually has "sane housing policy", it probably overlaps with places that have had demand outstrip supply for over a hundred years. A good chunk of the rest of America is used to being rural, semi-rural, or suburban. Especially places that saw most of their growth since automobiles became household near-essentials. Those places tends towards single family residential zoning too and are either seeing California-like sprawl or California-like price increases. Especially to the degree that market dynamics involve as much asset-first treatment of real estate as housing-first treatment. But I'd certainly love to hear about places that represent successful exceptions. Especially if they beat certain dynamics where construction also naturally follows demand (capital usually prefers to follow demand rather than lead it).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- TimPC 4y ago
  There is a big improvement between only getting higher density construction on a lagging basis with demand and not getting higher density construction at all. California is its own special hell of non-building that few parts of the world compare to.
  - wwweston 4y ago
    I'd believe any number of things might factor into less new construction (NIMBYism, tax incentives, some kinds of building requirements) but that California is especially behind in terms of density zoning? Nah. National rate of single family zoning is about 75%. LA county was, up until recently, around that (which doesn't tell the whole story considering how big and geographically diverse LA county is with cores of high density and more pockets of mid), and that's probably more or less true across the state. You want to see somewhere that's outlier bad that's experiencing a housing crisis? Pick somewhere like Utah, big growth and waaay too few units on the market, prices almost tripling in the last 5 years, you'll see 80-90% single family zoning in Salt Lake County, and that's the most urban place in the whole state. And this is a less relevant topic in California since the state basically ended single family zoning a year ago. You can argue it should have gotten on top of that years ago and there's probably a case for that. But AFAICT no place does. People like single family homes, places try to hold on to that vision until they encounter the problems of popularity and density as they come.

by TimPC 4y ago

thghtihadanacct 4y ago

As someone that is stuck out here already with dwindling resources ... what obligation have I to help provide more houses to encourage growth in a resource poor environment?

marssaxman 4y ago
Who's asking you to help? All you need to do is mind your own business on your own property, and leave other people alone to build the housing they need on theirs.

wwweston 4y ago

I've watching some municipalities hit their geographic constraints in a few different states for a while now, and what I think I've noticed is that almost nobody gets higher density construction ahead of demand -- if there is anywhere that actually has "sane housing policy", it probably overlaps with places that have had demand outstrip supply for over a hundred years. A good chunk of the rest of America is used to being rural, semi-rural, or suburban. Especially places that saw most of their growth since automobiles became household near-essentials. Those places tends towards single family residential zoning too and are either seeing California-like sprawl or California-like price increases. Especially to the degree that market dynamics involve as much asset-first treatment of real estate as housing-first treatment. But I'd certainly love to hear about places that represent successful exceptions. Especially if they beat certain dynamics where construction also naturally follows demand (capital usually prefers to follow demand rather than lead it).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TimPC 4y ago
There is a big improvement between only getting higher density construction on a lagging basis with demand and not getting higher density construction at all. California is its own special hell of non-building that few parts of the world compare to.
- wwweston 4y ago
  I'd believe any number of things might factor into less new construction (NIMBYism, tax incentives, some kinds of building requirements) but that California is especially behind in terms of density zoning? Nah. National rate of single family zoning is about 75%. LA county was, up until recently, around that (which doesn't tell the whole story considering how big and geographically diverse LA county is with cores of high density and more pockets of mid), and that's probably more or less true across the state. You want to see somewhere that's outlier bad that's experiencing a housing crisis? Pick somewhere like Utah, big growth and waaay too few units on the market, prices almost tripling in the last 5 years, you'll see 80-90% single family zoning in Salt Lake County, and that's the most urban place in the whole state. And this is a less relevant topic in California since the state basically ended single family zoning a year ago. You can argue it should have gotten on top of that years ago and there's probably a case for that. But AFAICT no place does. People like single family homes, places try to hold on to that vision until they encounter the problems of popularity and density as they come.