6 ms·

Mojang win right to use the name "Scrolls" for their upcoming game

149 points by citricsquid 15y ago

losethos 15y ago
A Spirit that's pretty Holy says, "aside risk Because backs open Dominions Hortensius renounce confessions deriders excellencies phantasms captain heretics tire gavest pryers deliberation EBCDIC told mountain's undertake fail incline Humans thick awaiting made figurative six Evil toward formless named temples hovered abyss wretchedness almost spiritually search we plunged Afric pleasureableness directing answer peacefully minute almsdeeds yields alms obeys afterwards Vindicianus cataloguers observance decrepit respected add remembrances tempting subverted Ministry burst smiled Rhetoric frame gathering foretelling apportioned scornful example slaves excellencies references buy Food Whatsoever Let's VIII plot these Creation estate Highness socalled Book prison flower commandment excursive transcribe Sacrament checked S plan worketh tempts changed heart conceptions PRINT createst charity witting allotted Writ glide such excels yielded retaineth Eating whereas voluptuousness distilled Presence vaunt carry make Defect blessest hither PROVIDED for lists faced docs every soever personally objections bubblings loose arrived scholar believes tragical fuller stretch fathers thief ruleth have consulters smelleth sinks sucking easeful sounding constituteth callest iniquities Manichaeus sciences numbers friendship's forgiving part honour decked took Stop condensed laid "
rje 15y ago
They won a temporary injunction. Hopefully zenimax will leave it at that, but if they decide to appeal this isn't over.
- masklinn 15y ago
  > Hopefully zenimax will leave it at that Pretty unlikely considering the course of action so far.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
qF 15y ago
Scan of the verdict: http://i.imgur.com/q33mW.jpg http://i.imgur.com/q33mW.jpg (in Swedish) Edit: and a summary of it in English; http://i.imgur.com/t8s3p.png http://i.imgur.com/t8s3p.png
6ren 15y ago
+ bonus publicity
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
ArcticCelt 15y ago
>The original debate started when developer Mojang decided to make the working title of their new CCG-like game "Scrolls" Not exactly. The debate started when Mojang decided to trademark the single word "Scrolls" and put themselves in a position where they could take to court game developers who want to use the word "scrolls" in the title of their games (or already use it). That's when Bethesda Softworks counterattacked aggressively. During the whole process Mojang successfully managed to spin themselves on social news websites as the victims of a David and Goliath fight when they were in fact the ones who started the Trademark offensive.
- ugh 15y ago
  Bullshit. Mojang was willing to drop that registration. Mojang and ZeniMax (well, their lawyers) were actually negotiating before they went to court. And where do you get the crazy idea that someone with a trademark for “Scrolls” can successfully sue others with a trademark that also contains “Scrolls” in some way? What matters is whether customers might be confused.
  - zerostar07 15y ago
    Apparently, they wouldn't have to drop the registration, because it has been denied anyway by the USPTO. Also I don't understand why someone with the trademark on the game Scrolls cannot sue other games named Scrolls. It's the same reason why we don't have Teachbook, Faceporn or Lamebook. And that's the whole point of trademarks.
- qF 15y ago
  "Trademark offensive" is a somewhat coloured representation of the situation. See; http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8519901309/bethesda-are-suing-us-heres-the-full-story http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8519901309/bethesda-are-suing-u... and http://notch.tumblr.com/post/10990169550/a-short-response http://notch.tumblr.com/post/10990169550/a-short-response
- masklinn 15y ago
  > Not exactly. Not like your comment is any better. A critical part missing from it is that, soon after Bethesda indicated their displeasure, Mojang offered to drop the trademark application (and to move from just "Scrolls" to a composite title). Apart from the trademark application (maybe, which they've yet to even remotely misuse or abuse with Minecraft, so I'd be more than willing to give Mojang the benefit of the doubt) the only actions I've seen them taking so far seemed to in good faith and in trying to resolve the matter as painlessly as possible for everybody (and somewhat humorously in the case of the Quake 3 match). > and put themselves in a position where they could take to court game developers who want to use the word "scrolls" in the title of their games (or already use it) Trademark law is nowhere near as insane as patent law, "scrolls" has been used numerous times as a sub-part of game titles (so the historical record is strongly against such a case), and the only people who have made those claims were trademark trolls (Tim Langdell) who got away with threatening people generally without needing to go to court. > During the whole process Mojang successfully managed to spin themselves on social news websites as the victims of a David and Goliath fight when they were in fact the ones who started the Trademark offensive. Please, how is trademarking the name of your next game a "Trademark Offensive"?
llambda 15y ago
The court documents as linked below[1] state that this is an injunction and that the main proceedings will continue which may take up to two years. In other words it's not over yet. This was a preliminary injunction which ZeniMax has failed to secure but that can be appealed and that doesn't prevent the main suit from continuing. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3124409 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3124409
- alttag 15y ago
  Concur. Thank goodness for sensationalist headlines by the HN contributor which allowed us to succumb to the link bait. "No preliminary injunction against use of 'Scrolls' by Mojang" would be better.
zerostar07 15y ago
Note that this is a district court in Stockholm, so good luck selling the game to the US. I still don't get why they don't just choose another name; OTOH i guess all this publicity helps build up the buzz...
- ugh 15y ago
  I’m not aware of any lawsuits in the US. Are you? As far as I know ZeniMax is currently only suing in Sweden. (What good would it ZeniMax do if they were to win a lawsuit in the US, though? Mojang distributes digitally. Can US authorities block websites for trademark infringement?)
  - zerostar07 15y ago
    Apparently the USPTO lawyers refused the registration of the trademark due to confusion: http://tdr.uspto.gov/search.action?sn=85323305# http://tdr.uspto.gov/search.action?sn=85323305# (check first document) I have no idea what it all means, but i guess it's not a good thing to bring yourself to a position where you can lose the profits you earned because of a name choice, especially when you have been warned.
    - cube13 15y ago
      Short version: The USPTO seems to believe that it is too similar to "The Elder Scrolls", and denied the trademark based on the fact that the two would both cover electronic entertainment goods-in other words, both are video games.
      - nkassis 15y ago
        What about a different meaning of scroll, like making a side-scrolling game and calling it scroll.
        cube13 15y ago
        I'm think that usage may still be denied, depending on exactly what the application is for. Mojang's application was for basically all computer games. The application indicates that if Mojang was a bit more specific(i.e. for a computer card game), this might have passed. However, there is a stronger part mentioned in the denial, which is for clothing. Mojang also applied for a "Scrolls" trademark with regards to clothing. There is already one registered under that mark.
rkalla 15y ago
This is an interesting and unique advertising opportunity for Scrolls to stay on the map and get attention throughout its coverage and eventual release. You dont need to try and dazzle people with screenshots or gameplay videos or demos, you just keep posting updates about the case and everyone reads them out of interest and you get your little slilce of mindshare and remind folks to try it out when it is ready. This seems like a win win for Mojang and a lose lose for Zenimax.
giberson 15y ago
When ever <insert big company> sues <insert little guy> over copyright infringement people usually defend <insert big company> with the "they have to protect their copyright or they may lose it". I was wondering, how aggressive does a company need to be when defending their copyrights? Is it enough to make a copyright motion then settle outside of court for an undisclosed amount (say $1)? Or in later proceedings of other claims would that information be available in discovery and thus weaken the company's copyright claim? I'm just wondering because I'm curious if Bethesda is "required" to appeal the initial ruling or if it's enough to let it be as it is.
- antiterra 15y ago
  It's trademark that you must defend or lose. Laches can apply in copyright, but you generally don't fully lose the copyright for non-enforcement. To answer your question, it seems like nothing is a sure thing in these court cases, so there's no bright line rule. It would seem like licensing would be an acceptable path, but if you licensed to everyone then you would be diluting your own brand and therefore risk losing your trademark.
  - giberson 15y ago
    Thanks for the clarification on the trademark vs. copyright. Can you license to Company A for $1 and Company B for $10,000? I'm wondering if there's any regulation in place to prevent such behavior.
    - cube13 15y ago
      Trademarks aren't anything a holder would want to license out, though. First off, they're basically a brand's identity, and give the holders the legal defense to keep that brand name as protected. Secondly, they're very specific. Multiple companies can have the same trademark for different product categories. For example(like I have posted here before), Starcraft is a computer game developed by Blizzard Entertainment. It's also a pretty big recreational vehicle manufacturer. Both co-exist, because Blizzard does not make RV's, and Starcraft does not make video games. There isn't any regulation in place because Trademarks are intended to reduce consumer confusion for products. A trademark owner is under absolutely no obligation to license out the trademark to anyone, and if it is widely licensed out, the holder can actually lose the trademark if it becomes a common name for the product.
codezero 15y ago
Bethesda should have played Quake.

149 points by citricsquid 15y ago

A Spirit that's pretty Holy says, "aside risk Because backs open Dominions Hortensius renounce confessions deriders excellencies phantasms captain heretics tire gavest pryers deliberation EBCDIC told mountain's undertake fail incline Humans thick awaiting made figurative six Evil toward formless named temples hovered abyss wretchedness almost spiritually search we plunged Afric pleasureableness directing answer peacefully minute almsdeeds yields alms obeys afterwards Vindicianus cataloguers observance decrepit respected add remembrances tempting subverted Ministry burst smiled Rhetoric frame gathering foretelling apportioned scornful example slaves excellencies references buy Food Whatsoever Let's VIII plot these Creation estate Highness socalled Book prison flower commandment excursive transcribe Sacrament checked S plan worketh tempts changed heart conceptions PRINT createst charity witting allotted Writ glide such excels yielded retaineth Eating whereas voluptuousness distilled Presence vaunt carry make Defect blessest hither PROVIDED for lists faced docs every soever personally objections bubblings loose arrived scholar believes tragical fuller stretch fathers thief ruleth have consulters smelleth sinks sucking easeful sounding constituteth callest iniquities Manichaeus sciences numbers friendship's forgiving part honour decked took Stop condensed laid "

rje 15y ago

They won a temporary injunction. Hopefully zenimax will leave it at that, but if they decide to appeal this isn't over.

masklinn 15y ago
> Hopefully zenimax will leave it at that Pretty unlikely considering the course of action so far.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

qF 15y ago

Scan of the verdict: http://i.imgur.com/q33mW.jpg http://i.imgur.com/q33mW.jpg (in Swedish) Edit: and a summary of it in English; http://i.imgur.com/t8s3p.png http://i.imgur.com/t8s3p.png

6ren 15y ago

+ bonus publicity

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

ArcticCelt 15y ago

>The original debate started when developer Mojang decided to make the working title of their new CCG-like game "Scrolls" Not exactly. The debate started when Mojang decided to trademark the single word "Scrolls" and put themselves in a position where they could take to court game developers who want to use the word "scrolls" in the title of their games (or already use it). That's when Bethesda Softworks counterattacked aggressively. During the whole process Mojang successfully managed to spin themselves on social news websites as the victims of a David and Goliath fight when they were in fact the ones who started the Trademark offensive.

ugh 15y ago
Bullshit. Mojang was willing to drop that registration. Mojang and ZeniMax (well, their lawyers) were actually negotiating before they went to court. And where do you get the crazy idea that someone with a trademark for “Scrolls” can successfully sue others with a trademark that also contains “Scrolls” in some way? What matters is whether customers might be confused.
- zerostar07 15y ago
  Apparently, they wouldn't have to drop the registration, because it has been denied anyway by the USPTO. Also I don't understand why someone with the trademark on the game Scrolls cannot sue other games named Scrolls. It's the same reason why we don't have Teachbook, Faceporn or Lamebook. And that's the whole point of trademarks.
qF 15y ago
"Trademark offensive" is a somewhat coloured representation of the situation. See; http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8519901309/bethesda-are-suing-us-heres-the-full-story http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8519901309/bethesda-are-suing-u... and http://notch.tumblr.com/post/10990169550/a-short-response http://notch.tumblr.com/post/10990169550/a-short-response
masklinn 15y ago
> Not exactly. Not like your comment is any better. A critical part missing from it is that, soon after Bethesda indicated their displeasure, Mojang offered to drop the trademark application (and to move from just "Scrolls" to a composite title). Apart from the trademark application (maybe, which they've yet to even remotely misuse or abuse with Minecraft, so I'd be more than willing to give Mojang the benefit of the doubt) the only actions I've seen them taking so far seemed to in good faith and in trying to resolve the matter as painlessly as possible for everybody (and somewhat humorously in the case of the Quake 3 match). > and put themselves in a position where they could take to court game developers who want to use the word "scrolls" in the title of their games (or already use it) Trademark law is nowhere near as insane as patent law, "scrolls" has been used numerous times as a sub-part of game titles (so the historical record is strongly against such a case), and the only people who have made those claims were trademark trolls (Tim Langdell) who got away with threatening people generally without needing to go to court. > During the whole process Mojang successfully managed to spin themselves on social news websites as the victims of a David and Goliath fight when they were in fact the ones who started the Trademark offensive. Please, how is trademarking the name of your next game a "Trademark Offensive"?

llambda 15y ago

The court documents as linked below[1] state that this is an injunction and that the main proceedings will continue which may take up to two years. In other words it's not over yet. This was a preliminary injunction which ZeniMax has failed to secure but that can be appealed and that doesn't prevent the main suit from continuing. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3124409 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3124409

alttag 15y ago
Concur. Thank goodness for sensationalist headlines by the HN contributor which allowed us to succumb to the link bait. "No preliminary injunction against use of 'Scrolls' by Mojang" would be better.

zerostar07 15y ago

Note that this is a district court in Stockholm, so good luck selling the game to the US. I still don't get why they don't just choose another name; OTOH i guess all this publicity helps build up the buzz...

ugh 15y ago
I’m not aware of any lawsuits in the US. Are you? As far as I know ZeniMax is currently only suing in Sweden. (What good would it ZeniMax do if they were to win a lawsuit in the US, though? Mojang distributes digitally. Can US authorities block websites for trademark infringement?)
- zerostar07 15y ago
  Apparently the USPTO lawyers refused the registration of the trademark due to confusion: http://tdr.uspto.gov/search.action?sn=85323305# http://tdr.uspto.gov/search.action?sn=85323305# (check first document) I have no idea what it all means, but i guess it's not a good thing to bring yourself to a position where you can lose the profits you earned because of a name choice, especially when you have been warned.
  - cube13 15y ago
    Short version: The USPTO seems to believe that it is too similar to "The Elder Scrolls", and denied the trademark based on the fact that the two would both cover electronic entertainment goods-in other words, both are video games.
    - nkassis 15y ago
      What about a different meaning of scroll, like making a side-scrolling game and calling it scroll.
      - cube13 15y ago
        I'm think that usage may still be denied, depending on exactly what the application is for. Mojang's application was for basically all computer games. The application indicates that if Mojang was a bit more specific(i.e. for a computer card game), this might have passed. However, there is a stronger part mentioned in the denial, which is for clothing. Mojang also applied for a "Scrolls" trademark with regards to clothing. There is already one registered under that mark.

rkalla 15y ago

This is an interesting and unique advertising opportunity for Scrolls to stay on the map and get attention throughout its coverage and eventual release. You dont need to try and dazzle people with screenshots or gameplay videos or demos, you just keep posting updates about the case and everyone reads them out of interest and you get your little slilce of mindshare and remind folks to try it out when it is ready. This seems like a win win for Mojang and a lose lose for Zenimax.

giberson 15y ago

When ever <insert big company> sues <insert little guy> over copyright infringement people usually defend <insert big company> with the "they have to protect their copyright or they may lose it". I was wondering, how aggressive does a company need to be when defending their copyrights? Is it enough to make a copyright motion then settle outside of court for an undisclosed amount (say $1)? Or in later proceedings of other claims would that information be available in discovery and thus weaken the company's copyright claim? I'm just wondering because I'm curious if Bethesda is "required" to appeal the initial ruling or if it's enough to let it be as it is.

antiterra 15y ago
It's trademark that you must defend or lose. Laches can apply in copyright, but you generally don't fully lose the copyright for non-enforcement. To answer your question, it seems like nothing is a sure thing in these court cases, so there's no bright line rule. It would seem like licensing would be an acceptable path, but if you licensed to everyone then you would be diluting your own brand and therefore risk losing your trademark.
- giberson 15y ago
  Thanks for the clarification on the trademark vs. copyright. Can you license to Company A for $1 and Company B for $10,000? I'm wondering if there's any regulation in place to prevent such behavior.
  - cube13 15y ago
    Trademarks aren't anything a holder would want to license out, though. First off, they're basically a brand's identity, and give the holders the legal defense to keep that brand name as protected. Secondly, they're very specific. Multiple companies can have the same trademark for different product categories. For example(like I have posted here before), Starcraft is a computer game developed by Blizzard Entertainment. It's also a pretty big recreational vehicle manufacturer. Both co-exist, because Blizzard does not make RV's, and Starcraft does not make video games. There isn't any regulation in place because Trademarks are intended to reduce consumer confusion for products. A trademark owner is under absolutely no obligation to license out the trademark to anyone, and if it is widely licensed out, the holder can actually lose the trademark if it becomes a common name for the product.

codezero 15y ago

Bethesda should have played Quake.