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I think GP's example of the Apple store line matches a lot better. The high fees on Ethereum were for 2 or 3 hours, similar to Apple's line when they sell a new

by xur17 4y ago

I think GP's example of the Apple store line matches a lot better. The high fees on Ethereum were for 2 or 3 hours, similar to Apple's line when they sell a new phone. If you don't absolutely need to run a transaction during that time period, you just.. wait. For example - I was looking to move some USDC, but I saw the fees, and just came back a few hours later and submitted it with no problems.

moistly 4y ago
Wait… so you were doing nothing at all involved with Bored Apes purchasing, just wanting to use your crypto coins for an ordinary thing, but would have paid an exorbitant fee to have done it at that time? So if you had just finished shopping at IKEA, which we all know is a time sink beyond compare, and unloaded your burdened cart onto the conveyor, and went to pay … you’d have been dinged by an enormous gas fee or abandon the goods and piss everyone off? Have them hold it for a few hours? Have you seen those lineups, they can’t stash everyone’s crap until gas fees return to some sort of reasonable charge. That is nuts. Unworkable. I must be misunderstanding.
- cyberge99 4y ago
  I think shopping on Amazon would be a better comparison.
- rglullis 4y ago
  When you pay things with your credit card at Ikea, the transaction is not being settled at the exact instant. It's not like your bank is sending money to Ikea's bank directly. When/If people get to be using crypto to pay for things at Ikea, it will be the same. They won't be using the blockchain directly. They will be using "layer-2" systems. These systems will be more efficient because they can batch multiple transactions into one. (With decentralized tech, there is also the possibility that IKEA itself can provide banking/financing services separate from their furniture retail business and that people might be using their "IKEA card" to pay for things anywhere.)
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    IKEA are already moving towards the latter with normal banking. Large retailers offering banking services is fairly common in some places.
  - moistly 4y ago
    > When you pay things with your credit card at Ikea, the transaction is not being settled at the exact instant. For all intents and purposes, it very much is. When I use my credit card to purchase something from a foreign supplier, the current exchange rate is used. It isn’t the exchange rate a few days later, nor the exchange rate when I settle the my account: it’s the exchange rate at the time of purchase. Further, some cards do settle near immediately: https://usa.visa.com/run-your-business/visa-direct/small-businesses/merchant-settlements.html https://usa.visa.com/run-your-business/visa-direct/small-bus... Now, please explain the “layer 2” solution: on the day that BApes drove wth gas fees sky-high, did layer 2 charges remain stable and low-cost? Who foots the bill for the difference? Is settlement delayed until the price comes back down? What happens if eth gas fees remain sky-high for days?
    - xur17 4y ago
      > Further, some cards do settle near immediately: https://usa.visa.com/run-your-business/visa-direct/small-bus https://usa.visa.com/run-your-business/visa-direct/small-bus... I'd argue that isn't really "settlement" though. The funds do arrive (which is at least better than the status code), but they can still be clawed back for any number of reasons at that point.
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    > (With decentralized tech, there is also the possibility that IKEA itself can provide banking/financing services separate from their furniture retail business and that people might be using their "IKEA card" to pay for things anywhere.) IKEA has already been running a regular bank for years FWIW: https://ikanobank.se/ https://ikanobank.se/
  - SergeAx 4y ago
    The idea of blockchain is prevention of double spending. How will those "layer-2" systems are supposed to achieve it?
rtkwe 4y ago
That works when crypto is just a speculative asset but in the "crypto wins" future where everything gets piled into crypto like evangelists claim will happen and is desirable it's an absolute nightmare. You're out of gas and need to get home but oh no some crazy new NFT has spiked the gas price now it's thousands of dollars to fill up. Any transaction processing that does that is unusable for anything touching real life.

by xur17 4y ago

moistly 4y ago

Wait… so you were doing nothing at all involved with Bored Apes purchasing, just wanting to use your crypto coins for an ordinary thing, but would have paid an exorbitant fee to have done it at that time? So if you had just finished shopping at IKEA, which we all know is a time sink beyond compare, and unloaded your burdened cart onto the conveyor, and went to pay … you’d have been dinged by an enormous gas fee or abandon the goods and piss everyone off? Have them hold it for a few hours? Have you seen those lineups, they can’t stash everyone’s crap until gas fees return to some sort of reasonable charge. That is nuts. Unworkable. I must be misunderstanding.

cyberge99 4y ago
I think shopping on Amazon would be a better comparison.
rglullis 4y ago
When you pay things with your credit card at Ikea, the transaction is not being settled at the exact instant. It's not like your bank is sending money to Ikea's bank directly. When/If people get to be using crypto to pay for things at Ikea, it will be the same. They won't be using the blockchain directly. They will be using "layer-2" systems. These systems will be more efficient because they can batch multiple transactions into one. (With decentralized tech, there is also the possibility that IKEA itself can provide banking/financing services separate from their furniture retail business and that people might be using their "IKEA card" to pay for things anywhere.)
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  IKEA are already moving towards the latter with normal banking. Large retailers offering banking services is fairly common in some places.
- moistly 4y ago
  > When you pay things with your credit card at Ikea, the transaction is not being settled at the exact instant. For all intents and purposes, it very much is. When I use my credit card to purchase something from a foreign supplier, the current exchange rate is used. It isn’t the exchange rate a few days later, nor the exchange rate when I settle the my account: it’s the exchange rate at the time of purchase. Further, some cards do settle near immediately: https://usa.visa.com/run-your-business/visa-direct/small-businesses/merchant-settlements.html https://usa.visa.com/run-your-business/visa-direct/small-bus... Now, please explain the “layer 2” solution: on the day that BApes drove wth gas fees sky-high, did layer 2 charges remain stable and low-cost? Who foots the bill for the difference? Is settlement delayed until the price comes back down? What happens if eth gas fees remain sky-high for days?
  - xur17 4y ago
    > Further, some cards do settle near immediately: https://usa.visa.com/run-your-business/visa-direct/small-bus https://usa.visa.com/run-your-business/visa-direct/small-bus... I'd argue that isn't really "settlement" though. The funds do arrive (which is at least better than the status code), but they can still be clawed back for any number of reasons at that point.
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  > (With decentralized tech, there is also the possibility that IKEA itself can provide banking/financing services separate from their furniture retail business and that people might be using their "IKEA card" to pay for things anywhere.) IKEA has already been running a regular bank for years FWIW: https://ikanobank.se/ https://ikanobank.se/
- SergeAx 4y ago
  The idea of blockchain is prevention of double spending. How will those "layer-2" systems are supposed to achieve it?

rtkwe 4y ago

That works when crypto is just a speculative asset but in the "crypto wins" future where everything gets piled into crypto like evangelists claim will happen and is desirable it's an absolute nightmare. You're out of gas and need to get home but oh no some crazy new NFT has spiked the gas price now it's thousands of dollars to fill up. Any transaction processing that does that is unusable for anything touching real life.