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> what exactly does that do to justify massive compute requiring fees 10-100x greater than the transaction value and associated use of real-world energy? You'r

> what exactly does that do to justify massive compute requiring fees 10-100x greater than the transaction value and associated use of real-world energy? You're confused. Bitcoin does not have such fees. Ethereum, while it does have such fees, is moving to proof-of-stake and the energy argument no longer holds up. There are numerous non-PoW chains already actively used, for which the energy argument does not hold up. This is the only way we know how to avoid double-spending in a trustless, permission-less way. If you know of another way that maintains those two properties, I would love to learn about it.

nawgz 4y ago
> You're confused. Bitcoin does not have such fees This is an Ethereum thread, is it not? > Ethereum, while it does have such fees, is moving to proof-of-stake and the energy argument no longer holds up. Um, excuse me, Ethereum very much has these fees still, so the argument is extremely valid in the moment; additionally, this "proof of stake" movement was meant to occur in 2019 no? They are 3 years late and at best 1/3 complete, 9 years of delay sounds about right - this space is full of speculation and grifters treating that speculation as truth to grift. > There are numerous non-PoW chains That have extremely unstable financial valuations, destroying the credibility of them as alternatives to existing financial systems. Your arguments hold no water, they require hypothetical futures and blatantly false things to hold, so why are you making them? > This is the only way we know how to avoid double-spending in a trustless, permission-less way The value prop of this is 0 today. Maybe it's even a net negative on the world, with the transactions on these chains having an extremely significant scam rate while also using more energy than entire mid-sized countries do to literally exist. You need to justify why "trustless and permissionless" are important before you can just say "we need systems with these properties!". I can only feel that you are financially deep into these systems and rationalizing to hold your position, you seem like you'd be perfectly capable of constructing good arguments when not emotionally compromised by the topic.
- siftrics 4y ago
  You literally said > So, you argue some value exists in __Bitcoin__ as a political tool to subvert dictatorial influence; what exactly does that do to justify massive compute requiring fees 10-100x greater than the transaction value and associated use of real-world energy? So yes, you're wrong about Bitcoin having such fees. > the transactions on these chains having an extremely significant scam rate Sure, let's re-assert the power of authoritarian regimes over their people because some people don't do their due diligence. Once again, someone argues that completely unrelated individuals should be punished for the bad-decision making of others.
  - nawgz 4y ago
    > You literally said My mistake, I meant Ethereum of course. > Sure, let's re-assert the power of authoritarian regimes over their people because some people don't do their due diligence Your argument is that people subjected to dictatorial misgivings in the financial realm should become internet and tech literate enough to... pick a chain with a stable valuation and guaranteed low fees and no scammers? You must be joking me, or literally paid to write what you are writing.
    - siftrics 4y ago
      > pick a chain with a stable valuation and guaranteed low fees There are numerous chains with sub one-cent transaction fees which have tokens pegged to the dollar. I can move arbitrary amounts of an asset which is 99% correlated with the US dollar at any time I want with only an internet connection. No governments or regulators need to give me the go ahead. Granted, I wouldn't want to evade regulations or break laws in a developed country. But it's a nice escape hatch for when you really, truly disagree with such laws and regulations and you need to GTFO of your country forever. It seems as though you're arguing that, if crypto existed during WWII, refugees should be forced to give up all their assets and life savings in order to save their own life. Why?
      - nawgz 4y ago
        > There are numerous chains with sub one-cent transaction fees which have tokens pegged to the dollar. Alright, so we agree - most chains are useless for monetary protection, and require you to use a "pegged to the dollar" token which implies centralization, links with the financial system, and more, such that the claim "[n]o governments or regulators need to give me the go ahead" is true for your particular transactions but in no way true of the overall chain which is susceptible to real-world enforcement. Cool, you've admitted 99% of blockchains are useless, it's a start > It seems as though you're arguing that, if crypto existed during WWII, refugees should be forced to give up all their assets and life savings in order to save their own life. Why? You'll really have to walk me thru this line of reasoning step by step LOL, you've lost the plot

nawgz 4y ago

> You're confused. Bitcoin does not have such fees This is an Ethereum thread, is it not? > Ethereum, while it does have such fees, is moving to proof-of-stake and the energy argument no longer holds up. Um, excuse me, Ethereum very much has these fees still, so the argument is extremely valid in the moment; additionally, this "proof of stake" movement was meant to occur in 2019 no? They are 3 years late and at best 1/3 complete, 9 years of delay sounds about right - this space is full of speculation and grifters treating that speculation as truth to grift. > There are numerous non-PoW chains That have extremely unstable financial valuations, destroying the credibility of them as alternatives to existing financial systems. Your arguments hold no water, they require hypothetical futures and blatantly false things to hold, so why are you making them? > This is the only way we know how to avoid double-spending in a trustless, permission-less way The value prop of this is 0 today. Maybe it's even a net negative on the world, with the transactions on these chains having an extremely significant scam rate while also using more energy than entire mid-sized countries do to literally exist. You need to justify why "trustless and permissionless" are important before you can just say "we need systems with these properties!". I can only feel that you are financially deep into these systems and rationalizing to hold your position, you seem like you'd be perfectly capable of constructing good arguments when not emotionally compromised by the topic.

siftrics 4y ago
You literally said > So, you argue some value exists in __Bitcoin__ as a political tool to subvert dictatorial influence; what exactly does that do to justify massive compute requiring fees 10-100x greater than the transaction value and associated use of real-world energy? So yes, you're wrong about Bitcoin having such fees. > the transactions on these chains having an extremely significant scam rate Sure, let's re-assert the power of authoritarian regimes over their people because some people don't do their due diligence. Once again, someone argues that completely unrelated individuals should be punished for the bad-decision making of others.
- nawgz 4y ago
  > You literally said My mistake, I meant Ethereum of course. > Sure, let's re-assert the power of authoritarian regimes over their people because some people don't do their due diligence Your argument is that people subjected to dictatorial misgivings in the financial realm should become internet and tech literate enough to... pick a chain with a stable valuation and guaranteed low fees and no scammers? You must be joking me, or literally paid to write what you are writing.
  - siftrics 4y ago
    > pick a chain with a stable valuation and guaranteed low fees There are numerous chains with sub one-cent transaction fees which have tokens pegged to the dollar. I can move arbitrary amounts of an asset which is 99% correlated with the US dollar at any time I want with only an internet connection. No governments or regulators need to give me the go ahead. Granted, I wouldn't want to evade regulations or break laws in a developed country. But it's a nice escape hatch for when you really, truly disagree with such laws and regulations and you need to GTFO of your country forever. It seems as though you're arguing that, if crypto existed during WWII, refugees should be forced to give up all their assets and life savings in order to save their own life. Why?
    - nawgz 4y ago
      > There are numerous chains with sub one-cent transaction fees which have tokens pegged to the dollar. Alright, so we agree - most chains are useless for monetary protection, and require you to use a "pegged to the dollar" token which implies centralization, links with the financial system, and more, such that the claim "[n]o governments or regulators need to give me the go ahead" is true for your particular transactions but in no way true of the overall chain which is susceptible to real-world enforcement. Cool, you've admitted 99% of blockchains are useless, it's a start > It seems as though you're arguing that, if crypto existed during WWII, refugees should be forced to give up all their assets and life savings in order to save their own life. Why? You'll really have to walk me thru this line of reasoning step by step LOL, you've lost the plot