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Most quantitative hedge funds and prop trading firms are now following a very tech like culture since they realize now that technology is just as important as t

by 22SAS 4y ago

Most quantitative hedge funds and prop trading firms are now following a very tech like culture since they realize now that technology is just as important as the strategies. To get the best engineers, especially from FAANG, they need to have a similar culture otherwise they'll have a hard time getting new hires.

skippyboxedhero 4y ago
It depends what the strategy is. Frankly, a lot of what people refer to as "prop trading firms" and "quant hedge funds" on here are just market-makers...they are taking very little to no risk, a lot are just riding the wave of ETF growth. Even the ones that are running alpha, I have heard of a few strategies, and they are largely what you would expect: low-edge, crowded trades (frankly, a lot of it is LTCM-style stuff). That is why the business has become more tech-like, because actually taking risk is...quite risky. If you are going for alpha, you are trying to hire one guy out of thousands, that person knows what they are worth, etc. It is far easier to hire lots of devs on low wages and do the grunt work jobs that are less lucrative, but don't require being able to actually work out if someone is a decent earner. Man Group has their own department at Oxford Uni, I think Winton hires people out of their department at Cambridge...Man Group's shaky record is legendary (they are doing everything now that blew them up in 2008), Winton was top tier...not anymore. AQR is another one, although a more traditionally finance quant approach...it all turned out to be pure beta. The hybrid approach of hiring devs or ML PHds to generate alpha has only ever worked accidently. The firms that have been printing money from quant investing over the past five years have all been traditional hedge funds that incorporated quant methods into a fundamental process. And I expect that will continue because, bluntly, these firms know what the price of a security should be better than some busted factor model.
- 22SAS 4y ago
  Interesting, would you add RenTech and TGS into the "traditional hedge funds that incorporated quant methods into a fundamental process" bucket?
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    No. Because that isn't what they do (I am talking about fundamental investors: Marshall Wace, Point72, etc.). I have no real idea what they do or do not do but they trade over shorter time frames where there is no change in fundamental information (i.e. they are trading based on liquidity signals which is, essentially, what market-making is now).

by 22SAS 4y ago

skippyboxedhero 4y ago

It depends what the strategy is. Frankly, a lot of what people refer to as "prop trading firms" and "quant hedge funds" on here are just market-makers...they are taking very little to no risk, a lot are just riding the wave of ETF growth. Even the ones that are running alpha, I have heard of a few strategies, and they are largely what you would expect: low-edge, crowded trades (frankly, a lot of it is LTCM-style stuff). That is why the business has become more tech-like, because actually taking risk is...quite risky. If you are going for alpha, you are trying to hire one guy out of thousands, that person knows what they are worth, etc. It is far easier to hire lots of devs on low wages and do the grunt work jobs that are less lucrative, but don't require being able to actually work out if someone is a decent earner. Man Group has their own department at Oxford Uni, I think Winton hires people out of their department at Cambridge...Man Group's shaky record is legendary (they are doing everything now that blew them up in 2008), Winton was top tier...not anymore. AQR is another one, although a more traditionally finance quant approach...it all turned out to be pure beta. The hybrid approach of hiring devs or ML PHds to generate alpha has only ever worked accidently. The firms that have been printing money from quant investing over the past five years have all been traditional hedge funds that incorporated quant methods into a fundamental process. And I expect that will continue because, bluntly, these firms know what the price of a security should be better than some busted factor model.

22SAS 4y ago
Interesting, would you add RenTech and TGS into the "traditional hedge funds that incorporated quant methods into a fundamental process" bucket?
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  No. Because that isn't what they do (I am talking about fundamental investors: Marshall Wace, Point72, etc.). I have no real idea what they do or do not do but they trade over shorter time frames where there is no change in fundamental information (i.e. they are trading based on liquidity signals which is, essentially, what market-making is now).