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‘Biodegradable’ drinking straws contain PFAS
- hammock 5y agoFrom the article: >University of Florida toxicologist John Bowden was fascinated by the durability of today’s paper straws compared with older ones that would break down quickly in a drink, and he wanted to know whether the new straws’ water resistance might come from PFAS. >An analysis detected PFAS “forever chemicals” in 36 out of 38 brands of plant-based straws tested.
- version_five 5y agoPopulism doesn't work. People like to hear easy answers that making some first order change couldn't possibly affect anything else, and end up supporting leaders that promise these poorly thought out changes. It's true for all political stripes. This article is as good an example as any, if a minor one. People need to be more critical of simple "mandates" that they think will fix anything.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mdp2021 5y ago> Populism doesn't work By definition, if the way to recognize it is that it sells "silver bullets" (pseudosolutions).
- chmod600 5y agoWouldn't a light coating of oil or wax be enough to keep the straw intact for an hour while sipping a beverage?
- ricardobeat 5y agoEven these new, who-knows-what additive laced straws start falling apart after 5-10 minutes.
- robbiep 5y agoYou do realise this article is in fact describing exactly what that who-knows-what is, right?
- the_jeremy 5y agoI don't believe it was an exhaustive list of ingredients, only one set of concerning ingredients common to most.
- chmod600 5y agoBut why? What is the engineering challenge in a cheap tube that needs to survive modest collapsing pressure and contact with cold water for an hour? Maybe wax-coated paper, or a thin foil coating on paper, or some other kind of plant matter pounded into the right shape, or something.
- version_five 5y agoThere is no challenge, we've invented plastic straws. The challenge is to use something that the people who are worked up about straws do not identify as plastic. Wax is a hydrocarbon that I believe comes from oil. I don't know how it breaks down on the environment but it's not immediately clear it's actually "better" than plastic, other than maybe not being seen once it falls apart.
- roflulz 5y agothe waxes we should be using are the ones from plants and animals, and they degrade like any other organic compounds. paraffin wax is the petroleum derived ones - and yeah - we should try to ban those.
- ars 5y agoWax defeats the entire purpose of making a paper straw. Oil would not stay in the paper. Just use plastic, it's better for the environment anyway.
- coffeeblack 5y agoMy favorite part is when the paper straws come individually wrapped in plastic.
- chmod600 5y agoWhy does wax defeat the purpose of a paper straw? Aren't there some biodegradable waxes?
- ars 5y agoWhy are you using a paper straw in the first place? If it's so it vanishes if you litter it - a wax covered straw is not going to do that. It will eventually biodegrade, but it's going to take a long time. If you are worried about straws getting stuck in animals, a wax covered one will also get stuck. The entire straw ban is the height of stupidity. Just start a "don't litter, throw it away" campaign and you'll solve 95% of the problem, without creating new ones.
- chmod600 5y agoThe main concern is ending up in the ocean, I guess. Not sure that's supported by numbers though.
- ars 5y agoThe number of straws that ended up in the ocean from countries that have banned it is indistinguishable from zero. If people actually cared (as opposed to wanting to look like the care) they would help start sanitation services (trash collection, and proper landfills) in Asia.
- Doxin 5y ago
- ectopod 5y agoThey used to be waxed back in the day. They worked, but if you were careless they would collapse. I think it's a reasonable trade off, but many people hated them.
- jjtheblunt 5y agoi think that's implied in the article, where the researcher wonders why the new straws last longer than what i think you're asking.
- robotnikman 5y agoIt seems nearly impossible to avoid these harmful chemicals nowadays, they are everywhere. It's very depressing...
- Jupe 5y agoJust thinking: Is it possible the (probably fast-growth trees) used in the production of these straws are the actual source of the PFAS chemicals? I mean, they are "forever chemicals".
- xkcd-sucks 5y agoRelated: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/weirdly-tramadol-not-natural-product-after-all https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/weirdly-tramadol-n...
- xracy 5y agothat's a username you have there...
- Reichhardt 5y agoWhy do we insist on composting or burying so much trash? Let's just burn plastic in the same high-temperature facilities common across Scandinavia. Plastic and packaging use is still only 5% of the oil going up in smoke in engines.
- dataflow 5y agoHow is incinerating supposed to be better than burying (not composting)? Edit: Yes, I obviously understand there's an energy release, but is finding yet another way to burn more oil and get carbon into the atmosphere really what we need at this point in time?
- ars 5y agoIt's WAY WAY better! The plastic does not accumulate, and you get to use the energy embodied in the plastic, instead of pumping more oil out of the ground. It's one of those rare win/win things, with no downsides. Of course people won't do it because you have to "recycle" it - which is worse for the environment, but it's an emotional thing, so don't expect people to listen to reason.
- upwardbound 5y ago+1. Burying plastic (in a place where it's safe to do so) would be a form of carbon sequestration so should be considered a positive.
- Syonyk 5y agoUnder what logic does "Remove oil from the ground, process it into something, and then bury that something" count as actual carbon sequestration? You've not removed anything from the atmosphere in any plastic cycle I'm aware of, and you've used an awful lot of energy in the process of going from "ground" to "ground." You'd have been better off, in every possible way, just leaving that oil in the ground in the first place. Except for the important way, which is corporate profits.
- 5y ago
- verisimi 5y agoIts worth it - turtles can snort PFAS paper straws, no problem :)
- armchairhacker 5y agoI got a metal straw which is nice. The main downside is you have to rinse it, and it comes with a brush to clean which I sometimes use. However I haven’t ever actually noticed it getting dirty. I drink water / tea flavored with stevia so it might not be as clean if you drink something else.
- lucb1e 5y agoWe have plastic ones and I prefer the texture of those to metal. Reusable I mean obviously, not throwaway. Had them for years, we use them maybe three times a month (mainly after getting takeaway and requesting the drink without those awful paper straws) so probably that contributes to longevity. I haven't noticed it getting dirty either but we just run it through the dishwasher like other cutlery. Takeaway: plastic isn't bad, just don't waste it, like every other resource from planet A...
- crackercrews 5y agoOther cutlery only needs washing on the outside. How do you ensure the straw is also cleaned on the inside?
- lucb1e 5y agoThe dishwasher seems to do a good job at getting water everywhere, also with other irregularly-shaped objects. I never actually looked up whether anyone used some scientific method to measure the cleanliness of dishwasher-run straws, but based on that it doesn't seem dirty in the slightest also after years of use, it seems to work well enough. (And my keyboard would be higher on the priority list of things to improve thorough cleaning of, but that's probably just me.) Edit: what about in between a fork's teeth? (Hope they're also called teeth in english, correct me if not, in that case I mean the individual prongs.) That seems somewhat similar if less elongated
- kube-system 5y agoThose metal straws scare me. Every time I see one, I imagine tripping or bumping into something with one in my mouth
- ecmascript 5y agoI have tried to convince people to not purchase stuff that has non-stick properties and / or water resistance in clothes etc. Unfortunately, people close to me don't care and now this. I have also wondered why the new straws are so much better than the old paper ones. This makes me so incredibly sad since I really try to avoid to purchase stuff with these kinds of chemicals in them among others. Just like one hour ago I was stopping at a fast food restaurant and ate, they had these kinds of straws which I imagine contains PFAS. Fuck. Even if you really try it seems you can't avoid it.
- ajsnigrutin 5y agoWhy is the world so obsesed with plastic straws? Are those really the most polluting item right now? Why do we not focus rather on plastic bottles for eg. soft drinks, which are the only option in many markets? Or useless double and triple packaging? Even the term "carbon footprint" is used to shift focus from "big oil" to "average joe" [0]... how many years of plastic straws is equivalent to eg. deepwater horizon oil spil? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/23/big-oil-coined-carbon-footprints-to-blame-us-for-their-greed-keep-them-on-the-hook https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/23/big-oi...
- burlesona 5y agoVirtue signaling only works if people can see you do it. So if you're a restaurant, how many noticeable things can you do to demonstrate you care about the environment without actually changing your business model, profits, or unit economics?
- xracy 5y agotogo packaging: Plastic Bags, Plastic(-lined) Cups/Lids, Plastic containers, But uhh, also, we should totally charge companies the cost to clean up the waste they produce.
- ajsnigrutin 5y agoOr a soda... in a plastic bottle... with a plastic label... wrapped in a plastic "sixpack"... on a plastic pallet, wrapped in plastic wrap.
- zardo 5y agoIsn't the point of plastic pallets that they're more durable/reusable than wood?
- ajsnigrutin 5y agoWell yeah, but even if they're 5 times as durable, dumping 5 wooden pallets into a forrest is a lot better than one plastic one. Plus all the plastic inside plastic inside plastic coverd in plastic carried on that pallet.
- burlesona 5y agoSo, what I don't understand is chemists and industrial engineers. There are highly educated humans somewhere who sat around and said, "you know what would sell well right now is straws that looked like paper but were actually durable in water," and one of them said "oh just coat that stuff in PFAS, it'll work!" Not only that but the product then got all the way through all the other humans required to reach industrial scale manufacture and distribution. So a large number of people decided that it was worth exposing other humans to known toxic chemicals[1] to sell a product. Do the people involved just not care as long as they get paid? Do they not believe that chemicals do any harm? Do they think the harm is so tiny that it doesn't matter, and the people who are concerned are idiots? I genuinely don't understand it. 1: https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/health-effects/index.html https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/health-effects/index.html
- the_jeremy 5y agoIf these chemicals aren't banned in the US, then people are going to use that as evidence that they're not harmful at the amounts you'd get from using a straw. I'd point more to the government if we're trying to assign blame.
- Scaevolus 5y agoPFAS are ubiquitous in paper food containers too. One weird trick to make paper waterproof: coat it in fluoridated chemicals! https://toxicfreefuture.org/new-study-finds-pfas-chemicals-in-takeout-food-packaging/ https://toxicfreefuture.org/new-study-finds-pfas-chemicals-i...
- glial 5y agoFrom the link: > Four out of the five analyzed takeout containers from Whole Foods Market were likely treated with PFAS.
- DoingIsLearning 5y agoSo for sanity, when they sell 'baking tray paper' I see in the composition that it is silicone coated. Is that baking paper PFAS/PFOAS contaminated at all? If not, then why on earth would you not just coat all paper with silicone for waterproofing, it cannot be more expensive that PFAS based waterproofing, right?
- soheil 5y agoHow many times do we need to learn that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Anything new that we consume or use as a tool to consume food with should be regarded as highly safe. Skeptical empiricism is the best way to achieve that.
- joshuamoes 5y agoseems to good to be true... But really I worry where else these will appear if we start looking.
- decremental 5y agoGreat. Ordered some lunch from a kind of hippie dippie place today and they gave me one of those straws. Oh well, part of a balanced microplastics diet I guess. I'm sure my years of drinking bottled water has been far worse for me.
- dynamohk 5y agoYou can buy stainless steel straws. Reusable too.
- layer8 5y agoThose aren’t very pleasant in iced drinks.
- peanut_worm 5y agoWhat would be the effects of a blanket ban on single-use plastic food packaging
- ranguna 5y agoIs this only in the US or in the EU as well? The other day I was really happy to see Pans&Co use all paper based packaging, including somewhat paper straws. Now thinking that those straws could contain these chemicals scares me a bit. Although the staws I used could only be used once or twice, they get all mushy after a bit (which is a good sign, hopefully).
- airstrike 5y agoDemand for straws in the EU is nowhere near the US. I'd wager the latter represents most of global straw consumption Some quick googling shows Europe consuming ~24 billion straws / year⁰ while the US consumes anywhere between 64–142 billion¹ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ 0. https://www.statista.com/statistics/989916/consumption-of-plastic-straws-by-country-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/989916/consumption-of-pl... 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-ban-fact-check-nyt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-b... (see Fact Check box half way through article)
- ranguna 5y agoAre you a bot? It seems like you just picked up some keywords from my comment and gave out some tagently related facts but completely unrelated to my question.