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Is there a good book on the history of Catholics in the US? It's always been so odd to me that despite Catholics being such a large group globally and historica

Is there a good book on the history of Catholics in the US? It's always been so odd to me that despite Catholics being such a large group globally and historically, they've never seemed to me to be very significant in US history. In fact, one of the most memorable mentions of them I remember from growing up was in some movie or textbook, in which the KKK was described as being opposed to Jewish and Catholic people in addition to black people.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
heavyset_go 4y ago
They have influence in the areas where Catholic diaspora settled. A lot of Catholic people that came to the US were lower class in terms of social, economic and racial classes. Irish and Italian people, for example, didn't exactly have the same economic or social power, or racial caste, as Anglo-Protestants. These days you'll see Catholics in power in some areas, like multiple New York governors and so on.
recursivedoubts 4y ago
There are many books, but one thing to consider is that when catholics were gaining political power... they all got shot.
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  The Kennedy's is who I assume you are talking about, but anyone else? As far as I can tell, the Kennedy brothers being shot had little to do with their religion
  - recursivedoubts 4y ago
    yep, just random, lone gunmen
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      There’s a huge middle ground of analysis you’re not addressing, and this comment is unhelpful at best I fear
- edgyquant 4y ago
  Who were these slew of catholic politicans who were shot? We currently have a catholic president btw
  - recursivedoubts 4y ago
    if you think the current president is catholic i don't think we can have a very productive conversation
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      If you think he isn’t, despite officially being so and attending mass weekly, you’re pulling a no-true Scotsman fallacy and I have no desire to engage with such bad faith logic.
daniel-cussen 4y ago
I was taught by a great Historian that the United States of America was the loss that the Catholic Church suffered, the primary loss, due to the sale of indulgences and antagonizations leading up to Protestantism. They forfeited America by not carrying out the Reformation in due time.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  That is a strange take on history. The US isn't Catholic because England was the primary colonizer, and England's road to Protestantism is a bizarre one that has far less to do with indulgences than someplace like Germany. And despite the slow Reformation, Catholics still colonized most of America. If Napoleon hadn't needed money it's very possible most of what is now the US would still be Catholic.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    Anglicanism is part of the same historical process, and it led to Puritans--that's Puritans, proudly WASPs, which I am not, given that I was baptized Catholic--colonized America first, maintained power for the most part, and set the tone for religious freedom, with religious restrictions as well. So in the Supreme Court of former eras you see them discussing for instance the Common Book of Prayer, as a book that was an instrument of dominance through religion in England. That specifically led to the notion that public schools could flat out not ever teach religion, for a great many good reasons. Including classroom suasion--the teacher, the authority, subtexting he would favor those who did worship as he/she did--to getting children to worship as they would not without that suasion. A subtle form of requiring adhesion, and very insidious, it allows telling that child about the place called Hell. And how to avoid it, what he must do, and must never do. And the religious restrictions the Puritans imposed? No polygamy. That was where they drew the line, at that point religious freedom within one group stepped on the toes of religious freedom of another group. And it came into play with the Latter Day Saints, who were many imprisoned (there's famous pictures), and who some of them then migrated away from America, into Mexico. Like the Puritans emigrated in their day, to practice polygamy, in accordance to their religion.[1] [1] Polygamy is a neutral term, it's not pejorative per se, just means plural wives.
diamond_jql 4y ago
Fitting in with the period of Pre-Code Hollywood, Al Smith's 1928 campaign for US President saw considerable public displays of anti-Catholic prejudice.[0] It is remarkable to see that, not even 100 years later, the US has an openly practicing Catholic president[1] without it being much of an issue. In a longer-term and probably more far-reaching sense, it is worth noting that since 2006, a majority of the US Supreme Court Justices have been Catholic. [2] [0] https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/when-a-catholic-terrified-the-heartland/ https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/when-a-ca... [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130601093036/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/delawareonline/access/1742751081.html?FMT=ABS https://web.archive.org/web/20130601093036/http://pqasb.pqar... [2]https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/politics/if-barrett-joins-supreme-court-would-have-six-catholics/2637977/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/politics/if-barrett-joins-su...
jollybean 4y ago
USA is foundational a 'protestant' nation which would come along with all of the skeptical catholic prejudices and there just were not that many of them early on. The influx of Irish and Italians would be the significant factor, and later, large Latino population but that would have happened when being 'Catholic' wouldn't have been as clearly relevant. JFK's Catholicism was a bit of a big deal, Joe Biden ... not at all. But if you want a mind bender, have a look: John Roberts (Chief Justice) Catholicism G.W. Bush 2005 Clarence Thomas Catholicism G.H.W. Bush 1991 Stephen Breyer Judaism Clinton 1994 Samuel Alito Catholicism G.W. Bush 2006 Sonia Sotomayor Catholicism Obama 2009 Elena Kagan Judaism Obama 2010 Neil Gorsuch Anglicanism / Catholicism[83][84] Trump 2017 Brett Kavanaugh Catholicism Trump 2018 Amy Coney Barrett Catholicism Trump 2020 While the commentor above is correct to point out that Catholicism would have lost 'institutional' power after thew war, in that, it couldn't just 'direct people to do stuff' ... cabals obviously exist within the system to create such disproportionately favorable outcomes. I mean that seems all 'conspiratorial' and what not, but I think it would be naive to contemplate otherwise and of course such groups and systems are all over the place, for every 'interest', I'm not singling out any group.
- bobthechef 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

heavyset_go 4y ago

They have influence in the areas where Catholic diaspora settled. A lot of Catholic people that came to the US were lower class in terms of social, economic and racial classes. Irish and Italian people, for example, didn't exactly have the same economic or social power, or racial caste, as Anglo-Protestants. These days you'll see Catholics in power in some areas, like multiple New York governors and so on.

recursivedoubts 4y ago

There are many books, but one thing to consider is that when catholics were gaining political power... they all got shot.

dghlsakjg 4y ago
The Kennedy's is who I assume you are talking about, but anyone else? As far as I can tell, the Kennedy brothers being shot had little to do with their religion
- recursivedoubts 4y ago
  yep, just random, lone gunmen
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    There’s a huge middle ground of analysis you’re not addressing, and this comment is unhelpful at best I fear
edgyquant 4y ago
Who were these slew of catholic politicans who were shot? We currently have a catholic president btw
- recursivedoubts 4y ago
  if you think the current president is catholic i don't think we can have a very productive conversation
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    If you think he isn’t, despite officially being so and attending mass weekly, you’re pulling a no-true Scotsman fallacy and I have no desire to engage with such bad faith logic.

daniel-cussen 4y ago

I was taught by a great Historian that the United States of America was the loss that the Catholic Church suffered, the primary loss, due to the sale of indulgences and antagonizations leading up to Protestantism. They forfeited America by not carrying out the Reformation in due time.

boomboomsubban 4y ago
That is a strange take on history. The US isn't Catholic because England was the primary colonizer, and England's road to Protestantism is a bizarre one that has far less to do with indulgences than someplace like Germany. And despite the slow Reformation, Catholics still colonized most of America. If Napoleon hadn't needed money it's very possible most of what is now the US would still be Catholic.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  Anglicanism is part of the same historical process, and it led to Puritans--that's Puritans, proudly WASPs, which I am not, given that I was baptized Catholic--colonized America first, maintained power for the most part, and set the tone for religious freedom, with religious restrictions as well. So in the Supreme Court of former eras you see them discussing for instance the Common Book of Prayer, as a book that was an instrument of dominance through religion in England. That specifically led to the notion that public schools could flat out not ever teach religion, for a great many good reasons. Including classroom suasion--the teacher, the authority, subtexting he would favor those who did worship as he/she did--to getting children to worship as they would not without that suasion. A subtle form of requiring adhesion, and very insidious, it allows telling that child about the place called Hell. And how to avoid it, what he must do, and must never do. And the religious restrictions the Puritans imposed? No polygamy. That was where they drew the line, at that point religious freedom within one group stepped on the toes of religious freedom of another group. And it came into play with the Latter Day Saints, who were many imprisoned (there's famous pictures), and who some of them then migrated away from America, into Mexico. Like the Puritans emigrated in their day, to practice polygamy, in accordance to their religion.[1] [1] Polygamy is a neutral term, it's not pejorative per se, just means plural wives.

diamond_jql 4y ago

Fitting in with the period of Pre-Code Hollywood, Al Smith's 1928 campaign for US President saw considerable public displays of anti-Catholic prejudice.[0] It is remarkable to see that, not even 100 years later, the US has an openly practicing Catholic president[1] without it being much of an issue. In a longer-term and probably more far-reaching sense, it is worth noting that since 2006, a majority of the US Supreme Court Justices have been Catholic. [2] [0] https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/when-a-catholic-terrified-the-heartland/ https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/when-a-ca... [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130601093036/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/delawareonline/access/1742751081.html?FMT=ABS https://web.archive.org/web/20130601093036/http://pqasb.pqar... [2]https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/politics/if-barrett-joins-supreme-court-would-have-six-catholics/2637977/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/politics/if-barrett-joins-su...

jollybean 4y ago

USA is foundational a 'protestant' nation which would come along with all of the skeptical catholic prejudices and there just were not that many of them early on. The influx of Irish and Italians would be the significant factor, and later, large Latino population but that would have happened when being 'Catholic' wouldn't have been as clearly relevant. JFK's Catholicism was a bit of a big deal, Joe Biden ... not at all. But if you want a mind bender, have a look: John Roberts (Chief Justice) Catholicism G.W. Bush 2005 Clarence Thomas Catholicism G.H.W. Bush 1991 Stephen Breyer Judaism Clinton 1994 Samuel Alito Catholicism G.W. Bush 2006 Sonia Sotomayor Catholicism Obama 2009 Elena Kagan Judaism Obama 2010 Neil Gorsuch Anglicanism / Catholicism[83][84] Trump 2017 Brett Kavanaugh Catholicism Trump 2018 Amy Coney Barrett Catholicism Trump 2020 While the commentor above is correct to point out that Catholicism would have lost 'institutional' power after thew war, in that, it couldn't just 'direct people to do stuff' ... cabals obviously exist within the system to create such disproportionately favorable outcomes. I mean that seems all 'conspiratorial' and what not, but I think it would be naive to contemplate otherwise and of course such groups and systems are all over the place, for every 'interest', I'm not singling out any group.

bobthechef 4y ago