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You appear to be arguing that it's better to betray your customers' intimate confidences, than to find a market you can address without doing that. I'm sure th

You appear to be arguing that it's better to betray your customers' intimate confidences, than to find a market you can address without doing that. I'm sure that can't be what you are trying to say - although, if it is, I can certainly understand why you made a throwaway to say it.

bombcar 5y ago
I think he’s saying don’t even try, because some other company won’t bother and it’ll crush you.
- throwanem 5y ago
  Fine! Don't try, then. "Someone is going to do this shameful thing, therefore there is no reason why I should not do this shameful thing" isn't quite the logic of a sociopath, but only because a sociopath sees no need in the first place to excuse to himself his own immoral behavior.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    You appear to be taking a very uncharitable interpretation. This thread reads to me as there may be perverse incentives due to nature of dating and capital markets that make it nearly impossible to compete while valuing security.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      Exactly. If “do think X” is my goal, and there are zero successful moral paths to doing thing X, then the only option is to not do it.
  - lazide 5y ago
    I’m pretty sure no one in this thread is saying that but you? It’s an observation that market conditions seem to disadvantage anyone who DOESN’T do that, so unless you like spending a bunch of effort and time (and being less competitive overall because of it, and likely go nowhere), maybe spend your effort somewhere else if you don’t like to be that way. There are a ton of markets like this. If you wanted to open a ‘good’ check cashing place for instance, go right ahead. Just don’t be surprised if you lose your shirt trying it by not being like the other, less scrupulous players.
  - JoshuaDavid 5y ago
    If your attitude is "if you can't do it right, don't do it at all", that's fine. But a predictable consequence of that attitude is that, when the cost of "doing it right" is high enough, the only people who do it at all are the people who don't do it right. The incentives are broken, and telling the people who point out that the incentives are broken that they're just making excuses for bad behavior doesn't actually fix the incentives.
firephonestival 5y ago
I'm not saying it's better, but that it is unavoidable given current market conditions. We all want our data to be handled securely, and we should try to understand why that does not happen.
- throwanem 5y ago
  There's a difference between understanding why people behave dishonestly, and making excuses for dishonest behavior. You're doing the second one under the color of the first. No one has to make a dating app. I don't see how "no one else could do it without betraying their users either!" as you argue - and, again, even granting this is true, which you've done nothing thus far to show - excuses the actual betrayal that actually has occurred. If you'd like to make an argument that it does, I'd be interested to hear that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tdfx 5y ago
    I think you're shooting the messenger here. OP was explaining the incentives for the behavior we're seeing, not excusing it.
    - throwanem 5y ago
      Maybe so. It's easy to get your blood up when you're addressing flagrantly careless behavior that substantially helps make possible the systematization of the same kind of targeted, but back then still by necessity only interpersonal and mostly opportunistic, violence that was a daily feature of your life throughout most of its first couple decades. So, sure, the one comment to which you've directly responded here, I'll call that out of line on my part. Everything else I've said throughout these comments stands.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
pessimizer 5y ago
I'm pretty sure it's just an observation about the situation that any player in that market would find itself in, so therefore when you look at apps in that market they're shitty about privacy. It's a comment about dating apps, not about people who decided not to go into dating apps i.e. found "a market you can address without doing that."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
He's saying that in the end, all that will be available to customers will be the unscrupulous ones - because if someone tries the other approach, they'll fail. And there always will be someone trying the unscrupulous approach, no matter how many people decide not to.
specialist 5y ago
u/firephonestival is stating the obvious and much repeated: any conscientious effort will be buried by the horde of amoral and immoral players. They are not defending, excusing, or in any way minimizing the excreble outcomes of our winner-takes-all economic regime.

bombcar 5y ago

I think he’s saying don’t even try, because some other company won’t bother and it’ll crush you.

throwanem 5y ago
Fine! Don't try, then. "Someone is going to do this shameful thing, therefore there is no reason why I should not do this shameful thing" isn't quite the logic of a sociopath, but only because a sociopath sees no need in the first place to excuse to himself his own immoral behavior.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  You appear to be taking a very uncharitable interpretation. This thread reads to me as there may be perverse incentives due to nature of dating and capital markets that make it nearly impossible to compete while valuing security.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    Exactly. If “do think X” is my goal, and there are zero successful moral paths to doing thing X, then the only option is to not do it.
- lazide 5y ago
  I’m pretty sure no one in this thread is saying that but you? It’s an observation that market conditions seem to disadvantage anyone who DOESN’T do that, so unless you like spending a bunch of effort and time (and being less competitive overall because of it, and likely go nowhere), maybe spend your effort somewhere else if you don’t like to be that way. There are a ton of markets like this. If you wanted to open a ‘good’ check cashing place for instance, go right ahead. Just don’t be surprised if you lose your shirt trying it by not being like the other, less scrupulous players.
- JoshuaDavid 5y ago
  If your attitude is "if you can't do it right, don't do it at all", that's fine. But a predictable consequence of that attitude is that, when the cost of "doing it right" is high enough, the only people who do it at all are the people who don't do it right. The incentives are broken, and telling the people who point out that the incentives are broken that they're just making excuses for bad behavior doesn't actually fix the incentives.

firephonestival 5y ago

I'm not saying it's better, but that it is unavoidable given current market conditions. We all want our data to be handled securely, and we should try to understand why that does not happen.

throwanem 5y ago
There's a difference between understanding why people behave dishonestly, and making excuses for dishonest behavior. You're doing the second one under the color of the first. No one has to make a dating app. I don't see how "no one else could do it without betraying their users either!" as you argue - and, again, even granting this is true, which you've done nothing thus far to show - excuses the actual betrayal that actually has occurred. If you'd like to make an argument that it does, I'd be interested to hear that.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tdfx 5y ago
  I think you're shooting the messenger here. OP was explaining the incentives for the behavior we're seeing, not excusing it.
  - throwanem 5y ago
    Maybe so. It's easy to get your blood up when you're addressing flagrantly careless behavior that substantially helps make possible the systematization of the same kind of targeted, but back then still by necessity only interpersonal and mostly opportunistic, violence that was a daily feature of your life throughout most of its first couple decades. So, sure, the one comment to which you've directly responded here, I'll call that out of line on my part. Everything else I've said throughout these comments stands.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

pessimizer 5y ago

I'm pretty sure it's just an observation about the situation that any player in that market would find itself in, so therefore when you look at apps in that market they're shitty about privacy. It's a comment about dating apps, not about people who decided not to go into dating apps i.e. found "a market you can address without doing that."

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

He's saying that in the end, all that will be available to customers will be the unscrupulous ones - because if someone tries the other approach, they'll fail. And there always will be someone trying the unscrupulous approach, no matter how many people decide not to.

specialist 5y ago

u/firephonestival is stating the obvious and much repeated: any conscientious effort will be buried by the horde of amoral and immoral players. They are not defending, excusing, or in any way minimizing the excreble outcomes of our winner-takes-all economic regime.