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Are you familiar of why India and China move to fertilizer in them 1980s saved the from starving? I assure it is not BS. without fertilizer you do not the exp

Are you familiar of why India and China move to fertilizer in them 1980s saved the from starving? I assure it is not BS. without fertilizer you do not the explosive yields that we get all over th world including the United States. And it is in fact well documented in a huge collection of science journals.

zdragnar 4y ago
It's an interesting point, but using China as an example of rational agricultural planning is a pretty poor choice considering how recently the famines resulting from the Great Leap Forward were at that point in time.
- rmah 4y ago
  The famines were from before the rational agricultural planning.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    I thought it was clear that was obvious, sorry. My only real point was that anything could look rational after what they went through before hand.
hinkley 4y ago
I think you should look at what's going on with agriculture in India right now. There was a lot of bankrupt farmers in the US in the 80's, and that's happening in India over the last decade. Graphically, some farmers are taking their lives by drinking leftover pesticides when they realize they can't afford their crops this year. India is, by many accounts, likely to switch to a new-new form of agriculture sooner than some of the rest of us. The combination of bigger problems and a shallower 'tradition' of western farming practices makes that easier. There was a post here about California covering its irrigation canals with solar panels. A couple of us politely pointed out that a couple of provinces in India have already been doing this for a while.
- rmah 4y ago
  Financial viability of farming as a business is independent of yield across all farms in a market. The consequence of radical improvements in agricultural yields lower prices (as a % of unskilled labor income) and usually means that most farmers go out of business (or export most of their crop). The upside is that the society overall gets much much wealthier.
- unmole 4y ago
  Farming in India has been perilous for centuries because it depends on the Monsoon. Improved irrigation, better seeds and yes artificial fertilizers have all significantly improved farm incomes. Nevertheless, structural issues remain. Farmer suicides are not even remotely new and it's disingenous to suggest otherwise. And it has to be pointed out that the suicide rate amongst Indian farmers is lower than the national average. You'll have to pry Western farming methods from the cold dead hands of Indian farmers. Even the urban intelligencia has shut up about organic/traditional farming after seeing what's happening across the Palk Strait.
  - johnny22 4y ago
    > You'll have to pry Western farming methods from the cold dead hands of Indian farmers. Even the urban intelligencia has shut up about organic/traditional farming after seeing what's happening across the Palk Strait. The indian itelligencia? I'd like to hear more about the commonalities here between equivalent folks in the uhmmm "west"
    - qart 4y ago
      I think he means people like Vandana Shiva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandana_Shiva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandana_Shiva). She's been on plenty of western interviews, talks, etc. advocating organic farming.
      - johnny22 4y ago
        well how many are there and how much do their opinions matter? And do they really represent the "intelligentsia"?

zdragnar 4y ago

It's an interesting point, but using China as an example of rational agricultural planning is a pretty poor choice considering how recently the famines resulting from the Great Leap Forward were at that point in time.

rmah 4y ago
The famines were from before the rational agricultural planning.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  I thought it was clear that was obvious, sorry. My only real point was that anything could look rational after what they went through before hand.

hinkley 4y ago

I think you should look at what's going on with agriculture in India right now. There was a lot of bankrupt farmers in the US in the 80's, and that's happening in India over the last decade. Graphically, some farmers are taking their lives by drinking leftover pesticides when they realize they can't afford their crops this year. India is, by many accounts, likely to switch to a new-new form of agriculture sooner than some of the rest of us. The combination of bigger problems and a shallower 'tradition' of western farming practices makes that easier. There was a post here about California covering its irrigation canals with solar panels. A couple of us politely pointed out that a couple of provinces in India have already been doing this for a while.

rmah 4y ago
Financial viability of farming as a business is independent of yield across all farms in a market. The consequence of radical improvements in agricultural yields lower prices (as a % of unskilled labor income) and usually means that most farmers go out of business (or export most of their crop). The upside is that the society overall gets much much wealthier.
unmole 4y ago
Farming in India has been perilous for centuries because it depends on the Monsoon. Improved irrigation, better seeds and yes artificial fertilizers have all significantly improved farm incomes. Nevertheless, structural issues remain. Farmer suicides are not even remotely new and it's disingenous to suggest otherwise. And it has to be pointed out that the suicide rate amongst Indian farmers is lower than the national average. You'll have to pry Western farming methods from the cold dead hands of Indian farmers. Even the urban intelligencia has shut up about organic/traditional farming after seeing what's happening across the Palk Strait.
- johnny22 4y ago
  > You'll have to pry Western farming methods from the cold dead hands of Indian farmers. Even the urban intelligencia has shut up about organic/traditional farming after seeing what's happening across the Palk Strait. The indian itelligencia? I'd like to hear more about the commonalities here between equivalent folks in the uhmmm "west"
  - qart 4y ago
    I think he means people like Vandana Shiva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandana_Shiva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandana_Shiva). She's been on plenty of western interviews, talks, etc. advocating organic farming.
    - johnny22 4y ago
      well how many are there and how much do their opinions matter? And do they really represent the "intelligentsia"?