4 ms·

Saying a paraphrase of "I didn't quit, I gave my employer an ultimatum that they then rejected" [0] is a very toxic way to interact with people. 1) Ultimatums

by RC_ITR 5y ago

Saying a paraphrase of "I didn't quit, I gave my employer an ultimatum that they then rejected" [0] is a very toxic way to interact with people. 1) Ultimatums in general are not a healthy way to interact with others because they intentionally try to skew power dynamics towards the giver (Do what I say or else...) 2) To then act (upon failure of the ultimatum) as though her employer acted inappropriately implies that she really didn't even give an ultimatum, so much as made a demand that she couched as an ultimatum. You can agree or disagree about whether she was entitled to act this way (academia is a unique field where toxic behavior like this is often normalized), but I think most people agree that if given the option, they'd prefer to not work with someone who approaches conflict in this way. [0]https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334343577044979712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1334343577044979712%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.technologyreview.com%2F2020%2F12%2F03%2F1013065%2Fgoogle-ai-ethics-lead-timnit-gebru-fired%2F https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334343577044979712?r...

pharmakom 5y ago
If you cannot give an ultimatum then you can always be pushed around.
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  Unless you stop making comments like that, I will never upvote a comment you write ever again. ^that is certainly more 'toxic' than: I disagree with your point. I think disagreements and negotiation with an employer are fine (to your point, one can even use the threat of quitting as part of said negotiation), but ultimatums just serve as an opportunity for the giver to imply that they have more power than the receiver, which is 'toxic' behavior
- BeetleB 5y ago
  > If you cannot give an ultimatum then you can always be pushed around. No finer example of false dichotomy than this. Hers is a textbook example of how not to negotiate. By textbook, I mean literally every textbook on negotiations that I've read. Ultimatums are a tool of last resort, and they all caution their high failure rate. It also is typically a signal of a weak person.
  - boppo1 5y ago
    >literally every textbook on negotiations Aside: can you recommend the best ones? Getting to Yes is all I've read, but it seems a little 'fluffy'. I want something more rigorous, perhaps with game theory and models.
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      > I want something more rigorous, perhaps with game theory and models. I haven't read any of those. The thing is, those are great for longer term negotiations, but not for short term day to day ones - you don't have the luxury of evaluating things from a game theory/model perspective. Even Getting To Yes is a bit poor in that regard.
      - boppo1 5y ago
        So which ones/resources do you like for day-to-day negotiations?

by RC_ITR 5y ago

pharmakom 5y ago

If you cannot give an ultimatum then you can always be pushed around.

RC_ITR 5y ago
Unless you stop making comments like that, I will never upvote a comment you write ever again. ^that is certainly more 'toxic' than: I disagree with your point. I think disagreements and negotiation with an employer are fine (to your point, one can even use the threat of quitting as part of said negotiation), but ultimatums just serve as an opportunity for the giver to imply that they have more power than the receiver, which is 'toxic' behavior
BeetleB 5y ago
> If you cannot give an ultimatum then you can always be pushed around. No finer example of false dichotomy than this. Hers is a textbook example of how not to negotiate. By textbook, I mean literally every textbook on negotiations that I've read. Ultimatums are a tool of last resort, and they all caution their high failure rate. It also is typically a signal of a weak person.
- boppo1 5y ago
  >literally every textbook on negotiations Aside: can you recommend the best ones? Getting to Yes is all I've read, but it seems a little 'fluffy'. I want something more rigorous, perhaps with game theory and models.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    > I want something more rigorous, perhaps with game theory and models. I haven't read any of those. The thing is, those are great for longer term negotiations, but not for short term day to day ones - you don't have the luxury of evaluating things from a game theory/model perspective. Even Getting To Yes is a bit poor in that regard.
    - boppo1 5y ago
      So which ones/resources do you like for day-to-day negotiations?