5 ms·

I used to have a Honda Civic with a sticky throttle. Luckily it was a manual transmission so it wasn't a big deal. Just push in the clutch and pull the pedal up

by foxyv 5y ago

I used to have a Honda Civic with a sticky throttle. Luckily it was a manual transmission so it wasn't a big deal. Just push in the clutch and pull the pedal up with my toe then replace/repair the throttle whenever is convenient. No unintended acceleration and no fiery wrecks. I kind of wonder if we're heading the wrong direction with drive by wire cars. In aerospace it makes a lot of sense, especially when you are super dedicated to safe coding. But in a consumer vehicle? Not so great. Then again, Boeing hasn't been doing great with it either.

subinsebastien 5y ago
(1) Automotive (2) Medical Devices (3) Aerospace In my mind, all three are done with more or less similar rigour conforming to strict standards. Yet, exceptions are seen in all of them.
- bborud 5y ago
  I remember when this was happening and I was surprised to learn that not only were there no good standards in automotive, reputable manufacturers like toyota didn’t even follow their own internal standards when developing software for critical bits. Or to rephrase: it would appear they made no credible effort given the types of defects that occurred.
- bombcar 5y ago
  The problem is the first is regularly not maintained anywhere near the levels required, especially as the car gets older.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  In my mind, the software for at least the first two is typically written by people who don't primarily have an IT background, and at least in the past it was very clear that no skilled IT security engineers with any even reasonably recent knowledge were involved.
  - slenk 5y ago
    Not everyone can write embedded systems software. And I strongly disagree with medical devices. Peoples lives depend on them working.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
      I think the problem is that many software developers can't do embedded, but many electrical engineers can't do software. Do you disagree that the software for medical devices is written badly, or are you just saying that it should be written well? I don't think the latter is in dispute. For the former, https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/31/hacking-risk-recall-pacemakers-patient-death-fears-fda-firmware-update https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/31/hacking-r...
    - adrianN 5y ago
      The truth is that embedded, safety critical software requires a set of skills that is not normally taught in computer science or in electrical engineering degrees unless the students intentionally specialize in that direction.
      - arunprakash01 5y ago
        [flagged]
- ranger_danger 5y ago
  > strict standards According to the PDF, they are not actually required to adhere to any software standards, and they did not always follow their own coding rules. An internal email admitted that "technology such as failsafe is not part of the Toyota’s engineering division’s DNA". They didn't even have bug trackers, config management OR COMMENTS in the 250k+ lines of code that were looked at. The software was full of bugs and terrible coding practices, plus the CPU was routinely pushed way too close to 100%. The ETCS code in question also had no unit tests, but it would be impossible to have them anyway due to their use of recursion in the code, which is also not supposed to be used in safety-critical systems.
- roeles 5y ago
  One thing that surprised me, was that in the case of cars there is no third party doing the certification.
cowmix 5y ago
I had an early 80s Accord with a sticky throttle. I almost wrecked my car many times because of it and I'm shocked I'm even here to type this.
- foxyv 5y ago
  I wish I had Youtube car repair videos as a kid. So many things are so much easier now that I don't have to rely on a Haynes manual with skipped steps and barely legible images.
- failedengineer 5y ago
  There are loads of people on here who have never driven cable-controlled throttles, rack-and-pinion assisted steering... I'd even guess there are a few that haven't used manual windows or hand-adjusted rear view mirrors (the kind you have to lean waaaay over to fix), and probably lots that haven't driven brakes without ABS, especially in the winter. I can't believe I didn't think of it, but... I didn't realize that older throttles could get stuck. I do know that power steering is literally the difference between smaller women being able to drive and not. I had an old Ford Aspire that a couple of my friends just couldn't drive because they couldn't turn it if it wasn't moving at road speeds.
  - apohn 5y ago
    >I can't believe I didn't think of it, but... I didn't realize that older throttles could get stuck. I had a 1991 Taurus SHO (manual) that did this. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the throttle assembly, but the cable would bind somewhere and it would keep the throttle open. I could never figure out where it was binding and neither could any mechanics. I usually had to pull over to turn the car off and back on again. The SHO accelerated very fast (at the time) so thankfully it never happened when I was facing a wall.
    - Infernal 5y ago
      Just here to say that my first car was a '91 SHO, champagne/gold with the fiberglass "Power Bulge" hood. Loved that car.

by foxyv 5y ago

subinsebastien 5y ago

(1) Automotive (2) Medical Devices (3) Aerospace In my mind, all three are done with more or less similar rigour conforming to strict standards. Yet, exceptions are seen in all of them.

bborud 5y ago
I remember when this was happening and I was surprised to learn that not only were there no good standards in automotive, reputable manufacturers like toyota didn’t even follow their own internal standards when developing software for critical bits. Or to rephrase: it would appear they made no credible effort given the types of defects that occurred.
bombcar 5y ago
The problem is the first is regularly not maintained anywhere near the levels required, especially as the car gets older.
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
In my mind, the software for at least the first two is typically written by people who don't primarily have an IT background, and at least in the past it was very clear that no skilled IT security engineers with any even reasonably recent knowledge were involved.
- slenk 5y ago
  Not everyone can write embedded systems software. And I strongly disagree with medical devices. Peoples lives depend on them working.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    I think the problem is that many software developers can't do embedded, but many electrical engineers can't do software. Do you disagree that the software for medical devices is written badly, or are you just saying that it should be written well? I don't think the latter is in dispute. For the former, https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/31/hacking-risk-recall-pacemakers-patient-death-fears-fda-firmware-update https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/31/hacking-r...
  - adrianN 5y ago
    The truth is that embedded, safety critical software requires a set of skills that is not normally taught in computer science or in electrical engineering degrees unless the students intentionally specialize in that direction.
    - arunprakash01 5y ago
      [flagged]
ranger_danger 5y ago
> strict standards According to the PDF, they are not actually required to adhere to any software standards, and they did not always follow their own coding rules. An internal email admitted that "technology such as failsafe is not part of the Toyota’s engineering division’s DNA". They didn't even have bug trackers, config management OR COMMENTS in the 250k+ lines of code that were looked at. The software was full of bugs and terrible coding practices, plus the CPU was routinely pushed way too close to 100%. The ETCS code in question also had no unit tests, but it would be impossible to have them anyway due to their use of recursion in the code, which is also not supposed to be used in safety-critical systems.
roeles 5y ago
One thing that surprised me, was that in the case of cars there is no third party doing the certification.

cowmix 5y ago

I had an early 80s Accord with a sticky throttle. I almost wrecked my car many times because of it and I'm shocked I'm even here to type this.

foxyv 5y ago
I wish I had Youtube car repair videos as a kid. So many things are so much easier now that I don't have to rely on a Haynes manual with skipped steps and barely legible images.
failedengineer 5y ago
There are loads of people on here who have never driven cable-controlled throttles, rack-and-pinion assisted steering... I'd even guess there are a few that haven't used manual windows or hand-adjusted rear view mirrors (the kind you have to lean waaaay over to fix), and probably lots that haven't driven brakes without ABS, especially in the winter. I can't believe I didn't think of it, but... I didn't realize that older throttles could get stuck. I do know that power steering is literally the difference between smaller women being able to drive and not. I had an old Ford Aspire that a couple of my friends just couldn't drive because they couldn't turn it if it wasn't moving at road speeds.
- apohn 5y ago
  >I can't believe I didn't think of it, but... I didn't realize that older throttles could get stuck. I had a 1991 Taurus SHO (manual) that did this. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the throttle assembly, but the cable would bind somewhere and it would keep the throttle open. I could never figure out where it was binding and neither could any mechanics. I usually had to pull over to turn the car off and back on again. The SHO accelerated very fast (at the time) so thankfully it never happened when I was facing a wall.
  - Infernal 5y ago
    Just here to say that my first car was a '91 SHO, champagne/gold with the fiberglass "Power Bulge" hood. Loved that car.