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So far at posting time I don't see a whole lot of signal to gain from the noise here if I were legitimately someone who had zero agriculture experience and was

by phil21 5y ago

So far at posting time I don't see a whole lot of signal to gain from the noise here if I were legitimately someone who had zero agriculture experience and was trying to gain understanding. This is the blind leading the blind, and if you gleaned much from the top comments you'd be worse informed than not reading this entire thread. Half of the posts are just political using couched language to pretend they aren't. Ag is definitely one of HNs blind spots, usually the topics are simply amusing (e.g. urban food production startups burning millions of VC) - but this is the first actually "substantive to humanity topic" I've read through and the results are a little scary. And heck, I'm probably contributing to this noise since I also haven't stepped foot on a farm or market garden in well over a decade.

tagami 5y ago
for the hardware/software interest, the signal is precision agriculture. Using sensors and data to optimize yields.
kickout 5y ago
Usually I shill my blog (in bio) where I _hope_ i'm sharing signal. In a weird type of way, there's little we can do immediately. Almost like a solar flare type of event. Ag and food production systems are so massively scaled, even if we WANTED to change everything for the better, it would likely take years, if not decades. Not like software where any bug can be fixed in a week or so. Human population numbers have exploded on the back of cheap, abundant food. If anything seriously disturbed that, yikes.
jiveturkey42 5y ago
Perhaps these issues cannot be solved from a desk and computer. HN might bristle at the idea the Farmer Joe has a more sophisticated mental model of an extremely complex and multivariate system (a field of corn or soy) which evades reduction to a dataset. The solutions I've seen on this board is typically "well let's reduce the variables and grow lettuce in warehouses!" Or trying to build a robot that can pick strawberries. Neither of these solves food scarcity issues. If people reading this wanted to pursue a meaningful solution via data, my advise is to look at the scaling of the farm-to-consumer market, and how to enable larger distributed networks of small independent farms to sell to customers. The food supply will be more resilient when farming gets smaller, simpler, and more distributed
- chasd00 5y ago
  >If people reading this wanted to pursue a meaningful solution via data, my advise is to look at the scaling of the farm-to-consumer market, and how to enable larger distributed networks of small independent farms to sell to customers. are you implying a farmer's market? they exist.
  - jiveturkey42 5y ago
    Thank you for the helpful sarcasm. Yes, I am implying farmers markets. There is not currently an effective way for these small farms to network their production in aggregate to sell at a level commensurate to an industrial farm. This is the reason big ag can sell for cheaper. If farmers markets could achieve cost-parity with big grocery (by competing at-scale) then distributed small-scale farming could contribute to solving many issues in climate, environment, nutrition, etc
    - tagami 5y ago
      the reliance on the cold chain in distribution is a large inhibitor to this.
    - phpnode 5y ago
      To make this work there would need to be a big social push towards eating in line with the seasons again (which was obviously the norm for 99.99% of the history of humanity). I think this might be a hard sell, people are now very used to being able to buy whatever they want whenever they want, e.g. strawberries in january
      - jiveturkey42 5y ago
        Seasonal eating of farm-fresh foods would certainly make free public healthcare a more reasonable proposal in the US. It would surely cut into the bottom line of the pharma industry
- zmgsabst 5y ago
  > my advise is to look at the scaling of the farm-to-consumer market, and how to enable larger distributed networks of small independent farms to sell to customers. The food supply will be more resilient when farming gets smaller, simpler, and more distributed Very astute comment. If any farmers in WA (or elsewhere) want a free consult on how to connect with your customers via the internet, please reach out!
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Comments like this show how out of touch the average person is with how much waste is involved in animal products - particularly beef. We can so easily grow enough food to feed everyone. Livestock takes up >80% of land, yet produces <20% of calories. The <20% of land that is used to grow food - only ~55% goes to feed people. The rest goes to animals and ethanol. The apocalypse is nowhere near close. The Earth's crust is ~2.5% potassium. A lower supply of Potash is not going to cause the end of the world.
- jiveturkey42 5y ago
  How much arable land does livestock take up?
  - kickout 5y ago
    Not much, most of that land literally has no use besides animal grazing.
    - trompetenaccoun 5y ago
      The majority of animals doesn't "graze", they're locked in factory farms. And you're ignoring the land needed to grow the feed, which makes a major difference.
      - goatlover 5y ago
        Speaking of beef, there's a lot of cows that graze in the US West on a lot of pasture.
    - legulere 5y ago
      At least here in Europe most meat is produced with animal feed grown on arable land (mostly in South America).
  - onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
    Nearly everywhere cattle can graze, you can grow other crops. As a percentage of all livestock land usage, there is not much chicken, goat, or pig grazing left in the world. It is true most other livestock CAN utilize land that can't be used efficiently for other forms of agriculture. In practice, less so.
mistrial9 5y ago
> Ag is definitely one of HNs blind spots I met a young man from Missouri.. he had a large frame but was just 20 years old or so.. He was harried and furtive and was getting into some trouble here and there. Upon knowing him a little bit, he was traumatized by large, loud, dominant men giving him orders, while as an intelligent young man he had questions. Of course many of the men I refer to here are from the Ag community. North American Ag is not solved, and with the Oklahoma Dustbowl and current crop patterns in California, it must be obvious to science that sometimes, Ag has evolved for CONTROL not INTELLIGENCE. American factory animal farming is a living nightmare in places. American treatment of topsoil, and of fresh water, and industrial placement at the Great Lakes for that matter, are a DISASTER. You defend the Ag "community" like they need defending, from urban smart-people? They are beetle-like survivors of decades of market distortion, ego and alcohol. Disrupt the Ag sector, yes please. ps- your elected representative William Gates already started the ball rolling with farm ownership. see any news story after his "revelation" .. first result in GS " Today, Bill Gates owns 242,000 acres of farmland in 19 states. In addition, he owns 25,750 acres of transitional land and 1,234 acres of recreational land for total land holdings of 268,984 acres. His largest holding is in Louisiana (69,071 acres), followed by Arkansas (47,927 acres) and Arizona (25,750 acres). Aug 27, 2021"
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by phil21 5y ago

tagami 5y ago

for the hardware/software interest, the signal is precision agriculture. Using sensors and data to optimize yields.

kickout 5y ago

Usually I shill my blog (in bio) where I _hope_ i'm sharing signal. In a weird type of way, there's little we can do immediately. Almost like a solar flare type of event. Ag and food production systems are so massively scaled, even if we WANTED to change everything for the better, it would likely take years, if not decades. Not like software where any bug can be fixed in a week or so. Human population numbers have exploded on the back of cheap, abundant food. If anything seriously disturbed that, yikes.

jiveturkey42 5y ago

Perhaps these issues cannot be solved from a desk and computer. HN might bristle at the idea the Farmer Joe has a more sophisticated mental model of an extremely complex and multivariate system (a field of corn or soy) which evades reduction to a dataset. The solutions I've seen on this board is typically "well let's reduce the variables and grow lettuce in warehouses!" Or trying to build a robot that can pick strawberries. Neither of these solves food scarcity issues. If people reading this wanted to pursue a meaningful solution via data, my advise is to look at the scaling of the farm-to-consumer market, and how to enable larger distributed networks of small independent farms to sell to customers. The food supply will be more resilient when farming gets smaller, simpler, and more distributed

chasd00 5y ago
>If people reading this wanted to pursue a meaningful solution via data, my advise is to look at the scaling of the farm-to-consumer market, and how to enable larger distributed networks of small independent farms to sell to customers. are you implying a farmer's market? they exist.
- jiveturkey42 5y ago
  Thank you for the helpful sarcasm. Yes, I am implying farmers markets. There is not currently an effective way for these small farms to network their production in aggregate to sell at a level commensurate to an industrial farm. This is the reason big ag can sell for cheaper. If farmers markets could achieve cost-parity with big grocery (by competing at-scale) then distributed small-scale farming could contribute to solving many issues in climate, environment, nutrition, etc
  - tagami 5y ago
    the reliance on the cold chain in distribution is a large inhibitor to this.
  - phpnode 5y ago
    To make this work there would need to be a big social push towards eating in line with the seasons again (which was obviously the norm for 99.99% of the history of humanity). I think this might be a hard sell, people are now very used to being able to buy whatever they want whenever they want, e.g. strawberries in january
    - jiveturkey42 5y ago
      Seasonal eating of farm-fresh foods would certainly make free public healthcare a more reasonable proposal in the US. It would surely cut into the bottom line of the pharma industry
zmgsabst 5y ago
> my advise is to look at the scaling of the farm-to-consumer market, and how to enable larger distributed networks of small independent farms to sell to customers. The food supply will be more resilient when farming gets smaller, simpler, and more distributed Very astute comment. If any farmers in WA (or elsewhere) want a free consult on how to connect with your customers via the internet, please reach out!

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

Comments like this show how out of touch the average person is with how much waste is involved in animal products - particularly beef. We can so easily grow enough food to feed everyone. Livestock takes up >80% of land, yet produces <20% of calories. The <20% of land that is used to grow food - only ~55% goes to feed people. The rest goes to animals and ethanol. The apocalypse is nowhere near close. The Earth's crust is ~2.5% potassium. A lower supply of Potash is not going to cause the end of the world.

jiveturkey42 5y ago
How much arable land does livestock take up?
- kickout 5y ago
  Not much, most of that land literally has no use besides animal grazing.
  - trompetenaccoun 5y ago
    The majority of animals doesn't "graze", they're locked in factory farms. And you're ignoring the land needed to grow the feed, which makes a major difference.
    - goatlover 5y ago
      Speaking of beef, there's a lot of cows that graze in the US West on a lot of pasture.
  - legulere 5y ago
    At least here in Europe most meat is produced with animal feed grown on arable land (mostly in South America).
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Nearly everywhere cattle can graze, you can grow other crops. As a percentage of all livestock land usage, there is not much chicken, goat, or pig grazing left in the world. It is true most other livestock CAN utilize land that can't be used efficiently for other forms of agriculture. In practice, less so.

mistrial9 5y ago

> Ag is definitely one of HNs blind spots I met a young man from Missouri.. he had a large frame but was just 20 years old or so.. He was harried and furtive and was getting into some trouble here and there. Upon knowing him a little bit, he was traumatized by large, loud, dominant men giving him orders, while as an intelligent young man he had questions. Of course many of the men I refer to here are from the Ag community. North American Ag is not solved, and with the Oklahoma Dustbowl and current crop patterns in California, it must be obvious to science that sometimes, Ag has evolved for CONTROL not INTELLIGENCE. American factory animal farming is a living nightmare in places. American treatment of topsoil, and of fresh water, and industrial placement at the Great Lakes for that matter, are a DISASTER. You defend the Ag "community" like they need defending, from urban smart-people? They are beetle-like survivors of decades of market distortion, ego and alcohol. Disrupt the Ag sector, yes please. ps- your elected representative William Gates already started the ball rolling with farm ownership. see any news story after his "revelation" .. first result in GS " Today, Bill Gates owns 242,000 acres of farmland in 19 states. In addition, he owns 25,750 acres of transitional land and 1,234 acres of recreational land for total land holdings of 268,984 acres. His largest holding is in Louisiana (69,071 acres), followed by Arkansas (47,927 acres) and Arizona (25,750 acres). Aug 27, 2021"

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