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I used to teach at these so called coding bootcamps and I know it can be hard for students psychologically. I still remember the day when the best student there

by evnix 4y ago

I used to teach at these so called coding bootcamps and I know it can be hard for students psychologically. I still remember the day when the best student there came up to me towards the end of the 6 month bootcamp and showed me his final bootcamp project with a lot of disappointment. I asked him why was he disappointed as he had actually built something nice with react and firebase. He pointed me towards his friend's(who was at a Uni.) assignment project which was built over the weekend and was basically a minimal working version of a react like library. He asked me why wasn't he able to do that and why wasn't he taught this at the bootcamp. I knew what his friend did in a weekend was probably a culmination of 3-4 years of rigourous learning of computer science concepts that he acquired at the Uni. Among bootcamp students, There is this constant unhealthy comparison going on in their minds with the people who graduated from a Uni., this is even after years of working in the industry. what doesn't help is, Apart from a few exceptions(students and companies), the way most recruiters and HRs treat them isn't something to talk about and the pay difference is visible. Also, It isn't easy for them to catch up. You had the privilege of being able to afford to study for 4 years while it is not the same story for most people at/from the bootcamps. To add to this, They also feel left out when you discuss about your days at the Uni or are discussing some computer science concepts. If you have a colleague or someone around who is self taught or from a bootcamp, be a bit more kind and explain or refer them to reading material on concepts in a subtle way, it doesn't take much to make them feel included.

posabsolute 4y ago
Software Engineering bootcamps are probably the best cost/benefits ratio programs that exist. There is a reason why that is, this isn't a walk in the park. Should you be paid equal to someone coming out of uni? I don't think so, the ramp-up will be hard and longer for the bootcamps guys, but this will change as you gain experience, after 5 years the difference in pay should be negligible if you properly ramp up!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TrackerFF 4y ago
The whole "grinding" mentality/culture has instilled unhealthy and unrealistic expectations into the minds of the typical boot camp "candidate". It is difficult to compare a 3-6 months boot camp, with consistent working / learning over 3-5 years. Sure, some students will learn very fast, but on average - there's more to it than just cramming. And the people that manage to "grind" for N months and land a FAANG job are few and far between, not to mention that they're essentially cramming a very, very small portion of the CS curriculum.
- 0x20cowboy 4y ago
  > And the people that manage to "grind" for N months and land a FAANG job are few and far between, Question, how do you get a FAANG job? Common answer, grid leetcode questions. Not super useful comment, just sayin
- COM2323 4y ago
  Not to mention that some new CS students are already "heavily invested" in the field and spend a lot of time during their youth around computers. All members of my dev team have been already working in IT during high school. This must be so hard to beat for someone starting late. CS graduate can easily enter the market with 5+ years of experience with actual work.
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
> If you have a colleague or someone around who is self taught or from a bootcamp, be a bit more kind and explain or refer them to reading material on concepts in a subtle way, it doesn't take much to make them feel included. About a decade ago I graduated from a technical institute's two year Computer Engineering Technology diploma program, so not a bootcamp, but absolutely not a full CS degree, and I've found this is a really important bit. My technical skills aren't really lacking, but my understanding and terminology still is. For my part I've become comfortable with saying "I'm unfamiliar with that concept, could you tell me more?"
jeremymcanally 4y ago
> Among bootcamp students, There is this constant unhealthy comparison going on in their minds with the people who graduated from a Uni. I sympathize with that (as someone who never went through uni for CS or a bootcamp), but at the same time, I've interviewed a bunch of bootcamp folks, and this mentality used to go the other way far too often as well. I've had a bunch of them have extremely huge egos and admitting to being told by their bootcamp that people who go to college for CS are less prepared for "the real world" than they are. I had one extremely rude candidate tell me straight up (after being told we're looking for someone with at least 5 years experience) "I went to X Bootcamp, which is like 10 years real world experience!" I can't imagine that was something he made up in his own brain. Most often, I'd talk to candidates who were being told to apply to senior and principal roles because they were told that their bootcamp experience qualified them for that (and it didn't hurt that, you know, the bootcamp stood to make more $$$ from their ISA if they happened to land a higher paying gig). I think A LOT of that has trailed off as I haven't run up against that in probably 3-4 years as some of the crappier ones have folded (though some of what I shared above came from ones that still going strong...). But, man for a while from like 2013-2015, it was a huge issue to the point where I'd recommending passing on nearly every bootcamp grad unless we knew the bootcamp's graduates from other means.
travisjungroth 4y ago
> it doesn't take much to make them feel included. lol we’re not charity cases.

by evnix 4y ago

posabsolute 4y ago

Software Engineering bootcamps are probably the best cost/benefits ratio programs that exist. There is a reason why that is, this isn't a walk in the park. Should you be paid equal to someone coming out of uni? I don't think so, the ramp-up will be hard and longer for the bootcamps guys, but this will change as you gain experience, after 5 years the difference in pay should be negligible if you properly ramp up!

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

TrackerFF 4y ago

The whole "grinding" mentality/culture has instilled unhealthy and unrealistic expectations into the minds of the typical boot camp "candidate". It is difficult to compare a 3-6 months boot camp, with consistent working / learning over 3-5 years. Sure, some students will learn very fast, but on average - there's more to it than just cramming. And the people that manage to "grind" for N months and land a FAANG job are few and far between, not to mention that they're essentially cramming a very, very small portion of the CS curriculum.

0x20cowboy 4y ago
> And the people that manage to "grind" for N months and land a FAANG job are few and far between, Question, how do you get a FAANG job? Common answer, grid leetcode questions. Not super useful comment, just sayin
COM2323 4y ago
Not to mention that some new CS students are already "heavily invested" in the field and spend a lot of time during their youth around computers. All members of my dev team have been already working in IT during high school. This must be so hard to beat for someone starting late. CS graduate can easily enter the market with 5+ years of experience with actual work.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago

> If you have a colleague or someone around who is self taught or from a bootcamp, be a bit more kind and explain or refer them to reading material on concepts in a subtle way, it doesn't take much to make them feel included. About a decade ago I graduated from a technical institute's two year Computer Engineering Technology diploma program, so not a bootcamp, but absolutely not a full CS degree, and I've found this is a really important bit. My technical skills aren't really lacking, but my understanding and terminology still is. For my part I've become comfortable with saying "I'm unfamiliar with that concept, could you tell me more?"

jeremymcanally 4y ago

> Among bootcamp students, There is this constant unhealthy comparison going on in their minds with the people who graduated from a Uni. I sympathize with that (as someone who never went through uni for CS or a bootcamp), but at the same time, I've interviewed a bunch of bootcamp folks, and this mentality used to go the other way far too often as well. I've had a bunch of them have extremely huge egos and admitting to being told by their bootcamp that people who go to college for CS are less prepared for "the real world" than they are. I had one extremely rude candidate tell me straight up (after being told we're looking for someone with at least 5 years experience) "I went to X Bootcamp, which is like 10 years real world experience!" I can't imagine that was something he made up in his own brain. Most often, I'd talk to candidates who were being told to apply to senior and principal roles because they were told that their bootcamp experience qualified them for that (and it didn't hurt that, you know, the bootcamp stood to make more $$$ from their ISA if they happened to land a higher paying gig). I think A LOT of that has trailed off as I haven't run up against that in probably 3-4 years as some of the crappier ones have folded (though some of what I shared above came from ones that still going strong...). But, man for a while from like 2013-2015, it was a huge issue to the point where I'd recommending passing on nearly every bootcamp grad unless we knew the bootcamp's graduates from other means.

travisjungroth 4y ago

> it doesn't take much to make them feel included. lol we’re not charity cases.