4 ms·

An open relationship is an abusive relationship, even if on the surface it doesn't look like one. You cannot love a partner without fearing of losing them - the

by mikevm 4y ago

An open relationship is an abusive relationship, even if on the surface it doesn't look like one. You cannot love a partner without fearing of losing them - there has to be some kind of an investment. If you let your partner be intimate sexually with other people then that is definitely bound to happen. And if that doesn't scare you, then you don't really care about him/her. In most cases this is pretty much cuckoldry under a neutral or "hip" label, as women can get laid without effort and men have to work pretty hard for sex, so the woman has her fun with the myriad of choice she has on dating apps (she doesn't even have to pay for dinner), while the guy is barely getting any.

antihero 4y ago
This just reeks of jealousy, insecurity, and incel/redpill nonsense.
NeutralForest 4y ago
dbspin 4y ago
This is a wholly subjective, not to say toxic view of relationships as mutually codependent and cloistrated. It speaks more to your own personal issues than any universal problem with a given relationship style. No one is forced to adopt an open relationship. The idea that 'I don't like it, so you can't have it', is profoundly authoritarian. If it doesn't suit you, don't engage in it. Easy, you can thank our pluralistic tolerant society for having options.
- mikevm 4y ago
  - liminvorous 4y ago
    Based on your comments here and what I’ve seen of polyamorous people’s online dating profiles I think I am more likely to respect a man in such a relationship style than I am to respect you. Do you think this comment is helpful? If not do you think your own comments have been helpful? If your answers to those two questions are different do you know why they are different?
    - sekh60 4y ago
      Psst, don't tell them about cuckqueaning.
lolc 4y ago
Eh, not all people look at their relationship in that specific "work for sex" way. Read up on "invisible labor" if you want to understand why women in particular could get offended by your perspective. If you're looking for such a relationship, I'm sure you'll find a mate on those terms. But don't claim that this is the only way. And please accept that other people may prefer other setups.
- mikevm 4y ago
  > Eh, not all people look at their relationship in that specific "work for sex" way. I'm not talking just about relationships, I'm talking about the asymmetric access men and women have to sex. This is an undeniable fact of life. If a man wants to get laid tonight, he will have to work hard, and his chances are not that high. That's why ~80% of the prostitutes are women... most women just don't need to pay for sex.
  - lolc 4y ago
    Relax, it's just culture. People who have open relationships tend not to talk about it. Some because they don't like getting lectured on cultural inventions like monogamy. Others because they don't want to get advances from sex-mercenaries. So you may just not know what your friends are up to, because why would they tell you of all people? If you allowed a bit of nuance, you could learn surprising things about humans.
  - cassepipe 4y ago
    Yes that's an undeniable fact of life but that's not the only one informing men/women relationships, not even the main one. It seems though that is the only one you care about Your point of view is so informed by your situation and has so little empathy that you don't even acknowledge the large portion of women that are not deemed to be fuckable by men and are derided for that, whether because of age, or body type or sometimes because they talk too loud
  - chefkoch 4y ago
    For most man yes, some men get laid easily.
cassepipe 4y ago
"You cannot love a partner without fearing of losing them" Maybe you are mistaking your love for someone with your fear of being alone ? Open relationships, and poly relationships even more, are difficult for many reasons I can't bother to detail here. There is of course a certain inequality in the access to sex that you are pointing out even though you are leaving out many other very important parameters in your example. But there is also a great inequality on how people are able to decouple intimacy/sex with a strong bond with someone, which can make someone suffer even if he or she did not think it would, leaving behind a mess of hurt feelings. But believe it or not, different people experience feelings for people differently and just calling them cold robots is just an easy way for you negate their existence, as some believed lesbians could not exist, they had to be frustrated heterosexual that had not met the right man. Anyways your vision of the whole thing seems to be pretty much informed by your resentment (They are not even paying for dinner!) and it is not that hard to find someone to have sex with you as a man. Having some emotional intelligence, basic social skills, not having a definite vision of what gender roles are, and in general not being an asshole will help a lot, adding to that women are for cultural reasons less sensitive than men to attractiveness. What's funny with incels is that they complain they can't get laid but what they mean in general is that can't have sex with the most attractive women and make fun of less attractive women, in doing so revealing that what they are after is the social status of being validated by them and not to get to share a moment of pleasure and intimacy with someone else.
- mikevm 4y ago
  > Maybe you are mistaking your love for someone with your fear of being alone ? No. Loving your sister and loving your wife are two different forms of love. You are equating them both. > Open relationships, and poly relationships even more, are difficult for many reasons I can't bother to detail here. I don't think they are possible without exploitation, period. There are plenty of horror stories online about these types of relationships, and rarely an honest appraisal. > Anyways your vision of the whole thing seems to be pretty much informed by your resentment (They are not even paying for dinner!) and it is not that hard to find someone to have sex with you as a man. It's informed by the fact that one side of the relationship usually has access to relationships without putting it any work (the woman), while the other part needs to put a lot of work. This obvious asymmetry makes this arrangement quite unfair to the man. > Having some emotional intelligence, basic social skills, not having a definite vision of what gender roles are, and in general not being an asshole will help a lot, adding to that women are for cultural reasons less sensitive than men to attractiveness. None of that helps much in a sexual market with strong competition (like where I live). Tinder barely works for most men here. You, like all leftists tend to make everything a cultural choice, so that you can go ahead and simply rewrite the rules as you see fit... I don't buy it, especially not for gender roles which have strong biological components. > What's funny with incels is that they complain they can't get laid but what they mean in general is that can't have sex with the most attractive women and make fun of less attractive women I don't care about incels - heck, I don't even know what they are. Men and women have different parameters for sexual attraction. Men are attracted primarily to youth and beauty and women are attracted to dominance and social status (this is not because of cultural reasons, as you claim). I wouldn't want to settle for an unattractive woman just like a woman wouldn't want to settle for a submissive man. By the way, if you manage to find it, consider reading https://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Rule-Theory-Dominance/dp/0812692373 https://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Rule-Theory-Dominance/dp/0812.... Read the first review.
helpfulclippy 4y ago
This presumes the game is entirely a competition to see who gets more sex. Poly and open relationships can have other advantages. For instance, a lot of men are effectively in a second relationship with their work, which often destroys monogamous relationships due to loneliness on the part of the ignored partner. Divorced parents often have a special relationship with their children, with a connection that is fed by lots of alone time with their kids. Poly relationships also open up effectively a new kind of family dynamic, in which metamours have a deep relationship that may not be sexual but allow a lot of trust and reliance. Finally, even if it really were about who gets more sex, men become much more attractive relative to women in middle age. The silver fox effect is real... sex is also a lot easier for men with lots of social status, which can also come with age.
virtualritz 4y ago
So you are saying monogamy exists primarily because of jealousy and fear? I wonder who would enter a relationship build on these foundations? Can you explain why you think "loosing your partner" is bound to happen when they have sex with other people? What about them falling in love with a co-worker (no sex required), dying from a car accident one day etc.? How do you assume these things are less likely than when sex enters the picture? Your emphasis on sex and what meaning it carries in relationships (particularly successful ones) seems to be be completely disproportionate to reality. People in open relationships tend to give more assurance to each other. Jealousy always exists. I can be jealous because my partner goes to her "girls night" and I don't get to spend time with her. Why would I be more or less jealous than if she had a date that night that involved sex? Once you think about this for a bit you realize that the choice/reasons for jealousy are mostly arbitrary/cultural and can be overcome. Like any bad habit. As for access to sex: there are options for men to balance the sheet. Just take up some sort of social dancing; tango, swing, salsa etc. Or sport. Climbing gyms are playgrounds for singles. And these options also open the door for "having sex with a stranger/recent aquaintance tonight". If that is so important to you.
- mikevm 4y ago
  > So you are saying monogamy exists primarily because of jealousy and fear? Monogamy exists because of a strong bond between two people. Sex is part of that bond. If you "love" another person, then obviously you would fear of losing them, and so would they. A bit of jealousy is healthy in a relationship, and there should be certain boundaries set (so called "red lines"). > Can you explain why you think "loosing your partner" is bound to happen when they have sex with other people? The fact that I have to explain this is already outrageous. > Jealousy always exists. I can be jealous because my partner goes to her "girls night" and I don't get to spend time with her. There's jealousy and there's her actually fcking a stranger. My gf should know that going for a "girl's night out" to some night club is not OK, just as it would not be OK for me to do the same thing. I have personally hooked up girls who were on trips abroad while they had a bf waiting at home... if your gf insists on going on such a trip, she's for the streets. > Once you think about this for a bit you realize that the choice/reasons for jealousy are mostly arbitrary/cultural and can be overcome. Like any bad habit. You can't just erase culture like that. Culture is not born out of thin air, it is partly based on our psychology. Biology -> Psychology -> Sociology. If you don't mind other men fcking your gf, then you are clearly in the minority of men, and that's OK, there's a minority for everything. But don't go around claiming that mate guarding is just purely cultural (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_guarding_in_humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_guarding_in_humans). > As for access to sex: there are options for men to balance the sheet. Just take up some sort of social dancing; tango, swing, salsa etc. Or sport. Climbing gyms are playgrounds for singles. It's not even close. Believe you me. Maybe it is where you live, but where I live the competition is so fierce that these places are just sausage fests.

by mikevm 4y ago

antihero 4y ago

This just reeks of jealousy, insecurity, and incel/redpill nonsense.

NeutralForest 4y ago

dbspin 4y ago

This is a wholly subjective, not to say toxic view of relationships as mutually codependent and cloistrated. It speaks more to your own personal issues than any universal problem with a given relationship style. No one is forced to adopt an open relationship. The idea that 'I don't like it, so you can't have it', is profoundly authoritarian. If it doesn't suit you, don't engage in it. Easy, you can thank our pluralistic tolerant society for having options.

mikevm 4y ago
- liminvorous 4y ago
  Based on your comments here and what I’ve seen of polyamorous people’s online dating profiles I think I am more likely to respect a man in such a relationship style than I am to respect you. Do you think this comment is helpful? If not do you think your own comments have been helpful? If your answers to those two questions are different do you know why they are different?
  - sekh60 4y ago
    Psst, don't tell them about cuckqueaning.

lolc 4y ago

Eh, not all people look at their relationship in that specific "work for sex" way. Read up on "invisible labor" if you want to understand why women in particular could get offended by your perspective. If you're looking for such a relationship, I'm sure you'll find a mate on those terms. But don't claim that this is the only way. And please accept that other people may prefer other setups.

mikevm 4y ago
> Eh, not all people look at their relationship in that specific "work for sex" way. I'm not talking just about relationships, I'm talking about the asymmetric access men and women have to sex. This is an undeniable fact of life. If a man wants to get laid tonight, he will have to work hard, and his chances are not that high. That's why ~80% of the prostitutes are women... most women just don't need to pay for sex.
- lolc 4y ago
  Relax, it's just culture. People who have open relationships tend not to talk about it. Some because they don't like getting lectured on cultural inventions like monogamy. Others because they don't want to get advances from sex-mercenaries. So you may just not know what your friends are up to, because why would they tell you of all people? If you allowed a bit of nuance, you could learn surprising things about humans.
- cassepipe 4y ago
  Yes that's an undeniable fact of life but that's not the only one informing men/women relationships, not even the main one. It seems though that is the only one you care about Your point of view is so informed by your situation and has so little empathy that you don't even acknowledge the large portion of women that are not deemed to be fuckable by men and are derided for that, whether because of age, or body type or sometimes because they talk too loud
- chefkoch 4y ago
  For most man yes, some men get laid easily.

cassepipe 4y ago

"You cannot love a partner without fearing of losing them" Maybe you are mistaking your love for someone with your fear of being alone ? Open relationships, and poly relationships even more, are difficult for many reasons I can't bother to detail here. There is of course a certain inequality in the access to sex that you are pointing out even though you are leaving out many other very important parameters in your example. But there is also a great inequality on how people are able to decouple intimacy/sex with a strong bond with someone, which can make someone suffer even if he or she did not think it would, leaving behind a mess of hurt feelings. But believe it or not, different people experience feelings for people differently and just calling them cold robots is just an easy way for you negate their existence, as some believed lesbians could not exist, they had to be frustrated heterosexual that had not met the right man. Anyways your vision of the whole thing seems to be pretty much informed by your resentment (They are not even paying for dinner!) and it is not that hard to find someone to have sex with you as a man. Having some emotional intelligence, basic social skills, not having a definite vision of what gender roles are, and in general not being an asshole will help a lot, adding to that women are for cultural reasons less sensitive than men to attractiveness. What's funny with incels is that they complain they can't get laid but what they mean in general is that can't have sex with the most attractive women and make fun of less attractive women, in doing so revealing that what they are after is the social status of being validated by them and not to get to share a moment of pleasure and intimacy with someone else.

mikevm 4y ago
> Maybe you are mistaking your love for someone with your fear of being alone ? No. Loving your sister and loving your wife are two different forms of love. You are equating them both. > Open relationships, and poly relationships even more, are difficult for many reasons I can't bother to detail here. I don't think they are possible without exploitation, period. There are plenty of horror stories online about these types of relationships, and rarely an honest appraisal. > Anyways your vision of the whole thing seems to be pretty much informed by your resentment (They are not even paying for dinner!) and it is not that hard to find someone to have sex with you as a man. It's informed by the fact that one side of the relationship usually has access to relationships without putting it any work (the woman), while the other part needs to put a lot of work. This obvious asymmetry makes this arrangement quite unfair to the man. > Having some emotional intelligence, basic social skills, not having a definite vision of what gender roles are, and in general not being an asshole will help a lot, adding to that women are for cultural reasons less sensitive than men to attractiveness. None of that helps much in a sexual market with strong competition (like where I live). Tinder barely works for most men here. You, like all leftists tend to make everything a cultural choice, so that you can go ahead and simply rewrite the rules as you see fit... I don't buy it, especially not for gender roles which have strong biological components. > What's funny with incels is that they complain they can't get laid but what they mean in general is that can't have sex with the most attractive women and make fun of less attractive women I don't care about incels - heck, I don't even know what they are. Men and women have different parameters for sexual attraction. Men are attracted primarily to youth and beauty and women are attracted to dominance and social status (this is not because of cultural reasons, as you claim). I wouldn't want to settle for an unattractive woman just like a woman wouldn't want to settle for a submissive man. By the way, if you manage to find it, consider reading https://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Rule-Theory-Dominance/dp/0812692373 https://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Rule-Theory-Dominance/dp/0812.... Read the first review.

helpfulclippy 4y ago

This presumes the game is entirely a competition to see who gets more sex. Poly and open relationships can have other advantages. For instance, a lot of men are effectively in a second relationship with their work, which often destroys monogamous relationships due to loneliness on the part of the ignored partner. Divorced parents often have a special relationship with their children, with a connection that is fed by lots of alone time with their kids. Poly relationships also open up effectively a new kind of family dynamic, in which metamours have a deep relationship that may not be sexual but allow a lot of trust and reliance. Finally, even if it really were about who gets more sex, men become much more attractive relative to women in middle age. The silver fox effect is real... sex is also a lot easier for men with lots of social status, which can also come with age.

virtualritz 4y ago

So you are saying monogamy exists primarily because of jealousy and fear? I wonder who would enter a relationship build on these foundations? Can you explain why you think "loosing your partner" is bound to happen when they have sex with other people? What about them falling in love with a co-worker (no sex required), dying from a car accident one day etc.? How do you assume these things are less likely than when sex enters the picture? Your emphasis on sex and what meaning it carries in relationships (particularly successful ones) seems to be be completely disproportionate to reality. People in open relationships tend to give more assurance to each other. Jealousy always exists. I can be jealous because my partner goes to her "girls night" and I don't get to spend time with her. Why would I be more or less jealous than if she had a date that night that involved sex? Once you think about this for a bit you realize that the choice/reasons for jealousy are mostly arbitrary/cultural and can be overcome. Like any bad habit. As for access to sex: there are options for men to balance the sheet. Just take up some sort of social dancing; tango, swing, salsa etc. Or sport. Climbing gyms are playgrounds for singles. And these options also open the door for "having sex with a stranger/recent aquaintance tonight". If that is so important to you.

mikevm 4y ago
> So you are saying monogamy exists primarily because of jealousy and fear? Monogamy exists because of a strong bond between two people. Sex is part of that bond. If you "love" another person, then obviously you would fear of losing them, and so would they. A bit of jealousy is healthy in a relationship, and there should be certain boundaries set (so called "red lines"). > Can you explain why you think "loosing your partner" is bound to happen when they have sex with other people? The fact that I have to explain this is already outrageous. > Jealousy always exists. I can be jealous because my partner goes to her "girls night" and I don't get to spend time with her. There's jealousy and there's her actually fcking a stranger. My gf should know that going for a "girl's night out" to some night club is not OK, just as it would not be OK for me to do the same thing. I have personally hooked up girls who were on trips abroad while they had a bf waiting at home... if your gf insists on going on such a trip, she's for the streets. > Once you think about this for a bit you realize that the choice/reasons for jealousy are mostly arbitrary/cultural and can be overcome. Like any bad habit. You can't just erase culture like that. Culture is not born out of thin air, it is partly based on our psychology. Biology -> Psychology -> Sociology. If you don't mind other men fcking your gf, then you are clearly in the minority of men, and that's OK, there's a minority for everything. But don't go around claiming that mate guarding is just purely cultural (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_guarding_in_humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_guarding_in_humans). > As for access to sex: there are options for men to balance the sheet. Just take up some sort of social dancing; tango, swing, salsa etc. Or sport. Climbing gyms are playgrounds for singles. It's not even close. Believe you me. Maybe it is where you live, but where I live the competition is so fierce that these places are just sausage fests.