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Is it just me, or does this article really overthink way too much? IMO, dating is ultimately not a subject that could be analyzed by logic. At least not on on

Is it just me, or does this article really overthink way too much? IMO, dating is ultimately not a subject that could be analyzed by logic. At least not on on the personal / self-help level (of course sociology / statistics still work). Trying to find some kind of generally applicable "rules of the game" that would work for everyone (or even most) people seems somewhat "not even wrong". It's simply trying to use the wrong tool in the wrong place. A date an encounter of two individuals trying to assess and explore their compatibility. This "should" (at least in my opinion) always be subject to their own morals and ethics. The question isn't "what do most people want / do", but "what would I / You want / do".

smackeyacky 4y ago
I found it interesting. Being an older person in a long term relationship with someone I met in high school, the online dating stuff seems much harder for a lot of reasons. Firstly, meet someone when you are young they are more likely to be of a similar socio-economic group and share a lot of values by default. Second (and I realise this is controversial) if you fall in love when you are young and stupid, the pair of you will become adults together and that shared experience will get you through shit that would turn your hair white. I thought the article provided some insight into how you are supposed to replace the older model of dating when the tech side of things offers too much pressure to do things quickly i.e. assess and cast off, or move straight to sex in a week. So to me it seemed like an assessment of things you should consider to slow things down, be honest with yourself and prospective partners. Not overthinking, properly thinking.
- freedom2099 4y ago
  I totally understand your point… like you I married my high school sweetheart (I am 37 and to date I have being in one continuous monogamous relationship for 20 years). We did grow up together… changed together.
- doix 4y ago
  I am 30(ish) and have managed to avoid the online dating scene. I just met people doing the hobbies I like and traveling. I feel like now it's easier than ever to do that. COVID has made a lot more people travel (anecdotal data ofc) after they felt stuck for a while. And remote work means that you can travel while working. You can go somewhere, meet someone, and then travel around together. If things stop going well, just stop traveling together. Stay at hostels, work at co-working spaces, look for 'expat groups' on Facebook (had to reactivate my Facebook account for this one). Get some hobbies and move to places that you can do them (live in a ski resort for a season or a surfer town and go snowboarding/surfing everyday). The person you meet will most likely be doing the same thing you're doing, so at least you have something in common (hobbies/traveling). The best part is, even if you don't meet someone, you probably had fun doing stuff rather than sitting at home and swiping on tinder. The only downside is the environmental impact of traveling around :(.
  - adriand 4y ago
    This sounds like a huge amount of fun! Kudos to you, it seems a million times more enjoyable and memorable than what most other people are doing. Do you get lonely though? After you and someone you’ve been hanging out with to your separate ways, how do you feel? And aside from romantic partners, what about friendships? Like what are you doing to maintain, and benefit from, relationships that you’ve had for years?
    - doix 4y ago
      > Do you get lonely though? I tend to meet people pretty quickly, so I don't get lonely. Sometimes the opposite, there is too much social interaction and I need to hide to get some 'space' to do 'nothing'. I've been traveling with a women I met for the past 6 months though, so definitely not lonely then :). > After you and someone you’ve been hanging out with to your separate ways, how do you feel? You know when you finish/catch up to a TV show that you really like, and you want a next episode, but there isn't one? You kind of feel this emptiness inside you. It's kinda like that, but worse. But you know you'll find another show, so you just move on and then later on you just remember how awesome the show was even though it's over. Maybe I get too invested in TV shows and that analogy doesn't make sense to other people ;p. > Like what are you doing to maintain, and benefit from, relationships that you’ve had for years? I keep in touch with them and come back 'home' (UK) to see them. They are split up around the UK now, so I make an effort to go visit them. Depending on where I am, they might come visit me. I also have friends that I game with and chat on irc/mumble. I've also met a lot of 'online friends' (from playing quake3 back in the day) whilst traveling as well. Pretty cool to put a face/person to an online handle.
mediumiqsad 4y ago
nnoitra 4y ago
Definitely this. She is trying to game it with a person with whom she isn't a good match. It has nothing to do with communication and more about vibe and 98% of vibe is just sheer sexual attraction.
insickness 4y ago
I always hate the "don't overthink it" comment that inevitably comes along with any advice on dating, eating, sleeping, etc. Yeah, if dating is going great for you, then no need to apply any thinking at all. But if something is not working then you'll need to think about it and the chorus of people saying "don't overthink it" are less than useless.
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  You know who really loves for you not to overthink things? Predators. What awesome life advice that is. There is a certain containing context within which you could validly say "don't overthink it", but that advice itself only comes as a result of thinking. So what you actually do is you think ALL about it, and the result of that thinking shows you how and where to pay the most attention and demand the most data and exert the most control, and where not to, and how to tell the difference. I can not imagine having a kid and advising them not to think too much about this topic. "Whatever happens happens, it'll probably be ok somehow. This isn't a chemical emotional landmine waiting for every human to step on or anything. It's not like naivete in this area is the root cause of 100 different ways for you to hurt yourself, or hurt others, or be hurt by others. It's not like there multiple whole classes of violence called domestic abuse and crimes of passion or anything like that." If I had a daughter who was neurotic and overthought things, and I wanted to help her avoid the harm that this can cause in this area, the talk would not be in praise of ignorance. The talk would be about over-optimization and mis-optimization. The fix is to be even less ignorant, to be aware of this natural pitfall, and to have an understanding about stepping back to see a wider view of something and get perspective, identify what actually matters, and avoid sabotaging the important goal (being happy) by optimizing for the wrong things (any number of details).
Flankk 4y ago
Not just you. I found it cringeworthy. Love is not rational. You're not going to be able to quantify your taste in music. I think social media has got many women holding men to a ridiculous standard. You're going to wait a long time if you're looking for some combination of Elon Musk and Justin Bieber.
Zababa 4y ago
I think the first paragraph of the article gives enough justification on why you would want to analyze this subject with logic: > I’ve been in a relationship for a while, but before that I dated for several years and experienced it both as 1) really fun and 2) terrible psychological torment. Lately dating videos on TikTok, Rethinking Sex by Christine Emba, this post by Oliver Traldi, The Agony of Eros by Byung-Chul Han, and Why Love Hurts by Eva Illouz have made me think about why people seem to find the modern dating market so unsatisfying. If dating is both "terrible psychological torment" and "so unsatisfying", which describes a situation that is worse than "really fun" is good, it might be a good idea to think about why. Maybe that's how dating has always been and will always be, maybe not and we can improve the situation. What's certain is that not thinking about it won't change anything, it is accepting the status quo. The author seems not okay with that.
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  I see a contradiction in using personal / anecdotical experience in an article that claims universality. Is "dating" unsatisfying, or have "my / my friends dates" been unsatisfying? IMO You can either write about Your dating life (or lives of some limited group of people), or a general sociological / psychological / ethical study. I don't think You can or should mix those two together.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
I think if anything it underthinks it. It has turned into a Game Theory kind of problem. Dating sites used to have a lot of compatibility questions - I think OK Cupid still does - and they were useful for filtering by values. But filtering by communication styles is much harder, and I don't think anyone has attempted it. The core of the problem is that everyone is playing by different rules. You have no idea what the other person's rules are. And some people are very insistent that their rules are correct and absolute. Worse, some rules are dysfunctional and more likely to produce bad outcomes. So it's like an intelligence war where the only signalling is behavioural, there are huge gaps in the available information, and you don't know what stakes the other person is playing to, or their appetite for risk, or what constitutes a win for them, or if they're aware of any differences between what they believe they want and what their actions reveal. Inevitably the information-free areas are filled by wishful thinking - encouraging that in partners is part of some peoples' strategy - or paranoia. Or possibly both. No wonder it's incredibly difficult.
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  Well, IMO if You apply Game Theory on Your dating life, You'll ultimately end up dating a Game Theorist. I get that it's possible, You definitely can "game" the current dating scene, but the question I keep asking myself is "why do that". Personally, I value curiosity. If I see someone trying to game /optimize their dating profiles, it's a huge turn off for me simply because it wipes out a lot of possibilities and unknowns. All of the sudden, the "oh, hey stranger who seems interesting for me because of X" turns into "oh, hey someone who optimized their profile for X". PS Corollary to that goes "honesty". I find it almost impossible to be curious about someone who I know is either lying, or "presenting a way too curated version of truth".
  - insickness 4y ago
    By looking like you're not "gaming" your profile, you're gaming your profile. This is like saying you don't like people who care so much about how they look, yet you bathe, don't wear rags, etc. It's human nature to care about presentation and optimize for how we present ourselves. Whether consciously or not, you're still playing the game if you're out dating. You're trying to get the best mate you possibly can while others are doing the same. You're not dating the ugliest, stupidest, most boring, low-status people you can find, even though that would be easiest. Welcome to the game.
gniv 4y ago
Don't you think a decision that might affect your whole life is worth overthinking? Why couldn't dating be analyzed by logic? If you want a lasting relationship shouldn't you try to think about it, not just feel your way through it?
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  Oh, I completely agree on the importance of the decision. I'm also not against using logic in general. Where I disagree is that I don't think any of "my" dates could be generalized. Nor would I like my counterparts to do so. Why and how we date and what do we expect from a relationship is (IMO) one of the deepest individual characteristics of ourselves. I agree with the article author on that we should learn to ask these questions of ourselves and of others, but that's about it. I don't think the answers (or even how do You get to them) can or should be in any way generalized. Some may get to express it through religion, some may use philosophy, or even logic. Most of those will probably run contrary to many others. Meeting someone for a date is frustrating and exciting often at the same time and often for the same reason - that it's something completely new and (hopefully) unexpected. If I look back on my own dating life, the dates / relationships I enjoyed most were those where the things we've shared were as varied as those where we differed. And the memorable part was usually the process of discovery, compromises, and learning to deal with each other. I don't think any of this "can" be generalized in a self help post.

smackeyacky 4y ago

I found it interesting. Being an older person in a long term relationship with someone I met in high school, the online dating stuff seems much harder for a lot of reasons. Firstly, meet someone when you are young they are more likely to be of a similar socio-economic group and share a lot of values by default. Second (and I realise this is controversial) if you fall in love when you are young and stupid, the pair of you will become adults together and that shared experience will get you through shit that would turn your hair white. I thought the article provided some insight into how you are supposed to replace the older model of dating when the tech side of things offers too much pressure to do things quickly i.e. assess and cast off, or move straight to sex in a week. So to me it seemed like an assessment of things you should consider to slow things down, be honest with yourself and prospective partners. Not overthinking, properly thinking.

freedom2099 4y ago
I totally understand your point… like you I married my high school sweetheart (I am 37 and to date I have being in one continuous monogamous relationship for 20 years). We did grow up together… changed together.
doix 4y ago
I am 30(ish) and have managed to avoid the online dating scene. I just met people doing the hobbies I like and traveling. I feel like now it's easier than ever to do that. COVID has made a lot more people travel (anecdotal data ofc) after they felt stuck for a while. And remote work means that you can travel while working. You can go somewhere, meet someone, and then travel around together. If things stop going well, just stop traveling together. Stay at hostels, work at co-working spaces, look for 'expat groups' on Facebook (had to reactivate my Facebook account for this one). Get some hobbies and move to places that you can do them (live in a ski resort for a season or a surfer town and go snowboarding/surfing everyday). The person you meet will most likely be doing the same thing you're doing, so at least you have something in common (hobbies/traveling). The best part is, even if you don't meet someone, you probably had fun doing stuff rather than sitting at home and swiping on tinder. The only downside is the environmental impact of traveling around :(.
- adriand 4y ago
  This sounds like a huge amount of fun! Kudos to you, it seems a million times more enjoyable and memorable than what most other people are doing. Do you get lonely though? After you and someone you’ve been hanging out with to your separate ways, how do you feel? And aside from romantic partners, what about friendships? Like what are you doing to maintain, and benefit from, relationships that you’ve had for years?
  - doix 4y ago
    > Do you get lonely though? I tend to meet people pretty quickly, so I don't get lonely. Sometimes the opposite, there is too much social interaction and I need to hide to get some 'space' to do 'nothing'. I've been traveling with a women I met for the past 6 months though, so definitely not lonely then :). > After you and someone you’ve been hanging out with to your separate ways, how do you feel? You know when you finish/catch up to a TV show that you really like, and you want a next episode, but there isn't one? You kind of feel this emptiness inside you. It's kinda like that, but worse. But you know you'll find another show, so you just move on and then later on you just remember how awesome the show was even though it's over. Maybe I get too invested in TV shows and that analogy doesn't make sense to other people ;p. > Like what are you doing to maintain, and benefit from, relationships that you’ve had for years? I keep in touch with them and come back 'home' (UK) to see them. They are split up around the UK now, so I make an effort to go visit them. Depending on where I am, they might come visit me. I also have friends that I game with and chat on irc/mumble. I've also met a lot of 'online friends' (from playing quake3 back in the day) whilst traveling as well. Pretty cool to put a face/person to an online handle.

mediumiqsad 4y ago

nnoitra 4y ago

Definitely this. She is trying to game it with a person with whom she isn't a good match. It has nothing to do with communication and more about vibe and 98% of vibe is just sheer sexual attraction.

insickness 4y ago

I always hate the "don't overthink it" comment that inevitably comes along with any advice on dating, eating, sleeping, etc. Yeah, if dating is going great for you, then no need to apply any thinking at all. But if something is not working then you'll need to think about it and the chorus of people saying "don't overthink it" are less than useless.

Brian_K_White 4y ago
You know who really loves for you not to overthink things? Predators. What awesome life advice that is. There is a certain containing context within which you could validly say "don't overthink it", but that advice itself only comes as a result of thinking. So what you actually do is you think ALL about it, and the result of that thinking shows you how and where to pay the most attention and demand the most data and exert the most control, and where not to, and how to tell the difference. I can not imagine having a kid and advising them not to think too much about this topic. "Whatever happens happens, it'll probably be ok somehow. This isn't a chemical emotional landmine waiting for every human to step on or anything. It's not like naivete in this area is the root cause of 100 different ways for you to hurt yourself, or hurt others, or be hurt by others. It's not like there multiple whole classes of violence called domestic abuse and crimes of passion or anything like that." If I had a daughter who was neurotic and overthought things, and I wanted to help her avoid the harm that this can cause in this area, the talk would not be in praise of ignorance. The talk would be about over-optimization and mis-optimization. The fix is to be even less ignorant, to be aware of this natural pitfall, and to have an understanding about stepping back to see a wider view of something and get perspective, identify what actually matters, and avoid sabotaging the important goal (being happy) by optimizing for the wrong things (any number of details).

Flankk 4y ago

Not just you. I found it cringeworthy. Love is not rational. You're not going to be able to quantify your taste in music. I think social media has got many women holding men to a ridiculous standard. You're going to wait a long time if you're looking for some combination of Elon Musk and Justin Bieber.

Zababa 4y ago

I think the first paragraph of the article gives enough justification on why you would want to analyze this subject with logic: > I’ve been in a relationship for a while, but before that I dated for several years and experienced it both as 1) really fun and 2) terrible psychological torment. Lately dating videos on TikTok, Rethinking Sex by Christine Emba, this post by Oliver Traldi, The Agony of Eros by Byung-Chul Han, and Why Love Hurts by Eva Illouz have made me think about why people seem to find the modern dating market so unsatisfying. If dating is both "terrible psychological torment" and "so unsatisfying", which describes a situation that is worse than "really fun" is good, it might be a good idea to think about why. Maybe that's how dating has always been and will always be, maybe not and we can improve the situation. What's certain is that not thinking about it won't change anything, it is accepting the status quo. The author seems not okay with that.

MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
I see a contradiction in using personal / anecdotical experience in an article that claims universality. Is "dating" unsatisfying, or have "my / my friends dates" been unsatisfying? IMO You can either write about Your dating life (or lives of some limited group of people), or a general sociological / psychological / ethical study. I don't think You can or should mix those two together.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago

I think if anything it underthinks it. It has turned into a Game Theory kind of problem. Dating sites used to have a lot of compatibility questions - I think OK Cupid still does - and they were useful for filtering by values. But filtering by communication styles is much harder, and I don't think anyone has attempted it. The core of the problem is that everyone is playing by different rules. You have no idea what the other person's rules are. And some people are very insistent that their rules are correct and absolute. Worse, some rules are dysfunctional and more likely to produce bad outcomes. So it's like an intelligence war where the only signalling is behavioural, there are huge gaps in the available information, and you don't know what stakes the other person is playing to, or their appetite for risk, or what constitutes a win for them, or if they're aware of any differences between what they believe they want and what their actions reveal. Inevitably the information-free areas are filled by wishful thinking - encouraging that in partners is part of some peoples' strategy - or paranoia. Or possibly both. No wonder it's incredibly difficult.

MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
Well, IMO if You apply Game Theory on Your dating life, You'll ultimately end up dating a Game Theorist. I get that it's possible, You definitely can "game" the current dating scene, but the question I keep asking myself is "why do that". Personally, I value curiosity. If I see someone trying to game /optimize their dating profiles, it's a huge turn off for me simply because it wipes out a lot of possibilities and unknowns. All of the sudden, the "oh, hey stranger who seems interesting for me because of X" turns into "oh, hey someone who optimized their profile for X". PS Corollary to that goes "honesty". I find it almost impossible to be curious about someone who I know is either lying, or "presenting a way too curated version of truth".
- insickness 4y ago
  By looking like you're not "gaming" your profile, you're gaming your profile. This is like saying you don't like people who care so much about how they look, yet you bathe, don't wear rags, etc. It's human nature to care about presentation and optimize for how we present ourselves. Whether consciously or not, you're still playing the game if you're out dating. You're trying to get the best mate you possibly can while others are doing the same. You're not dating the ugliest, stupidest, most boring, low-status people you can find, even though that would be easiest. Welcome to the game.

gniv 4y ago

Don't you think a decision that might affect your whole life is worth overthinking? Why couldn't dating be analyzed by logic? If you want a lasting relationship shouldn't you try to think about it, not just feel your way through it?

MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
Oh, I completely agree on the importance of the decision. I'm also not against using logic in general. Where I disagree is that I don't think any of "my" dates could be generalized. Nor would I like my counterparts to do so. Why and how we date and what do we expect from a relationship is (IMO) one of the deepest individual characteristics of ourselves. I agree with the article author on that we should learn to ask these questions of ourselves and of others, but that's about it. I don't think the answers (or even how do You get to them) can or should be in any way generalized. Some may get to express it through religion, some may use philosophy, or even logic. Most of those will probably run contrary to many others. Meeting someone for a date is frustrating and exciting often at the same time and often for the same reason - that it's something completely new and (hopefully) unexpected. If I look back on my own dating life, the dates / relationships I enjoyed most were those where the things we've shared were as varied as those where we differed. And the memorable part was usually the process of discovery, compromises, and learning to deal with each other. I don't think any of this "can" be generalized in a self help post.