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As someone diagnosed with ADHD later in life, a lot of these ADHD superpowers are just the result of taking dopaminergic stimulants. Especially the hyper focus

As someone diagnosed with ADHD later in life, a lot of these ADHD superpowers are just the result of taking dopaminergic stimulants. Especially the hyper focus and feeling superior to people staring out the window or failing to heads-down work for several hours straight. Yes you can hyperfocus even without stimulants, but the real superpower is having access to them so you can channel that consistently. I personally believe everybody should be allowed to take these stimulants if they want to, because many people would benefit from it. The propaganda around stimulants working radically differently on those with ADHD vs those without is just that (I can go on about why I think that in much more detail). Ask anybody you’re close with how taking their friend’s adderall to study worked out. Look into people like Paul Erdos. Anyway, I think you can definitely argue that there is a lot more nuance to psychiatry than you see in clinical settings (probably many disorders should be broken up into multiple others, others are just symptoms rather than a problem itself, others are not even disorders but just a different way of being). But really all that matters is that psychiatrists can match symptoms to treatments that work. Matching poor/misdirected executive function to medication that “boosts” dopamine and norepinephrine works pretty well, so why worry about the name of the condition?

WalterSear 5y ago
> As someone diagnosed with ADHD later in life, a lot of these ADHD superpowers are just the result of taking dopaminergic stimulants. I experienced them before I was aware of my issues, before had ever tried any medication.
- opportune 5y ago
  I am responding specifically to some of the paragraphs in the essay where the author mentions working non-stop for hours straight on something in a quiet room, while their peers who were "studying" were spending some of that time chatting or bothered by some distraction. Without medication, at least for me and I suspect almost all other people, hyperfocus is something that comes and goes at random and is rarely centered on what it should be (even if I do find it interesting, like real analysis coursework). But even regular people hyperfocus when they take adderall.
  - shmageggy 5y ago
    This part of the author’s account struck me as well. Like, yeah it would be great if I could summon the hyperfocus at the right moment, and sometimes impending deadlines/tests cause that, but more often than not it just doesn’t work that way. And if it does, the last-minute cram session is way more stressful and less effective than actually doing the work over time would have been. Yes, the author got that A that one time, but what could he have achieved if he had managed to work on it for more than one night? Or put another way: if you are lucky enough to succeed and level-up through the academia/career/whatever ladder enough despite these problems, you’ll eventually get to a point where cramming doesn’t cut it. You’ll be surrounded by people who are just as smart but who can actually focus at the right times on the right things, and then you’ll struggle (speaking from experience).
    - nicolas_t 5y ago
      I can focus for hours straight in a quiet room but: a) I can't choose what to focus on. So if I need to do something but it's not the latest thing I'm obsessed about, tough luck b) Deadlines help but if it's not something I'm obsessed about and there's no deadlines, not going to happen My experience maps the author, I did well in university because becoming super interested in a subject and reading everything about it for a couple of weeks to the detriment of everything else worked well. Well it worked well in France where we had 2 exams a year and all exams were open book, it didn't work that well in the US where tests were more regular and memorising random uninteresting fact was expected (I lost point in a computer graphics class for not being able to give the name of companies that were members of the Opengl architectural board or when the first version was released... Who cares??) After graduating, I'd say the fact that I get very interested in things and completely focus on them actually helped me in my career. On the other hand, my inability to do paperwork, send invoices on time (been a consultant most of my life), do my taxes etc lost me around 150k so far. So, it's a double edged sword for sure.
      - klysm 5y ago
        This might be the most relatable comment I've ever read on HN - it at least feels better to know I'm not alone in the experience.
klysm 5y ago
> As someone diagnosed with ADHD later in life, a lot of these ADHD superpowers are just the result of taking dopaminergic stimulants. Especially the hyper focus and feeling superior to people staring out the window or failing to heads-down work for several hours straight. This is the complete opposite of my experience. A lot of my life has been dominated by a hyper-focus that feels like it isn't under my control. I would stay awake reading until I can't think anymore with relentless pursuit of something that was entirely non-relevant to critical priorities in my life. I very recently (past couple of months) started taking stimulants, and one of the biggest differences for me was the feeling of desperation to pursue was greatly relaxed. Not gone, but definitely not as intense. I think a lot of the problem here is the definition of focus is overloaded. For me, there are (at least) two distinct levels of focus on different time scales. I define short-term focus as stability on task level executive function. Can you tolerate a brief interruption and go back to what you were doing? Or plan ahead for the next task? This ability is absolutely compromised relative to the population norm for me. I have essentially 0 local stability. On a longer time scale, I think a similar stability notion applies. I frequently get completely engrossed for periods of a few weeks on a topic - beyond healthy levels of interest. But one day, it's just gone - vapid. Time for some serious hand waving: my mental model of what stimulants do to me decrease the activation threshold for picking something in an executive space. By lowering this plane, it's easier for me to remain more stable as the surface is a lot more clear. I'm curious to know if what I'm saying sounds like 100% bullshit though - I haven't really talked through this mental model with anybody.
tbalsam 5y ago
Thanks for sharing, I really appreciated the last half. Good thoughts generally One downside I think after reading here is that there is some wacko in the first half of the post that I feel compelled to comment on a few things. Hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD proper. Stimulants can also make you feel hyperfocused. However, the general reported effects of stimulants are a feeling of "normalcy", not hyperfocus as a result of stimulants. Many people taking stimulants are still symptomatic, albeit managed, meditation long term is generally an excruciatingly (if excruciating) adjunct to stimulants. Second, Adderall often gives the feeling of superfocus and speed to neurotypical individuals but has been statistically shown to give little gain in practice in terms of certain raw metrics. A very strong dopaminergic placebo, as it were. I'd suspect the reason for it being considered effective is that it keeps you glued on tasks for significantly longer than otherwise . It's not propaganda, it's science, you can look at the studies yourself, it's pretty drastic. However there may be another layer on top of that that that could be propagandizing what is otherwise a valid scientific distinction. Much agreed in the last half, I've seen a lot of subclinical dissociative like disorders fall into ADHD, or DPDR, when really there is probably a core condition and several other families lumped in. Such is always the curse of dimensionality reduction. A more root-cause preserving descriptive language set that doesn't rely on the anchor of billing codes would open up the scientific fields a lot. Language determines nomenclature, which determines assumed avenues of exploration. A dimension reduced model of mental health along symptomatic axes will almost always destroy symptom and condition "root cause" linkage. Additionally like you noted anxiety and depression are more symptoms of traumatic disorders and less actual disorders in and of themselves. My pet theory is that's one reason why "depression" is so hard to cure, imagine trying to generically cure "fever" instead of making vaccines, etc. Ramble over! I think (especially later on) we think pretty similarly!
- opportune 5y ago
  According to the DSM, the way you get identified as having ADHD is by reporting persistent executive function (esp. for inattentive type) and/or impulsivity-hyperactivity problems [0]. Most people grow out of the H-type symptoms as they mature but I is more persistent and suspected to be less diagnosed[1]. What I mean is that anybody who thinks they have executive function problems likely does. Yeah, hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD proper. But if you're unmedicated, for most people it's not something you can control - if you could, it wouldn't really be a disorder at all. I was responding specifically to the following paragraph: "Until I got to college I didn't understand how people could spend hours a day “studying”. When I got there I found out. When my first-year hallmates were “studying” they were looking out the window, playing with their pencils, talking to their roommates, all sorts of stuff that wasn't studying. When I needed to study I would hide somewhere and study. I think the ability to focus on just one thing for a few hours at a time is a great gift that ADD has given me." That's pretty much exactly what it feels like to take adderall. For me taking stimulants like adderall allows me to force focus even on stuff I don't care much about/even when I don't normally feel like it. And yes, this is exactly the way people without ADHD feel too (as you mention - even if you don't have ADHD, you can still focus on-task for a long time and feel smart as fuck). What you mention about dopaminergic stimulants only actually benefitting people with ADHD is likely an oversimplification. To meet the DSM criteria (and thus, in most clinical settings, to get diagnosed with ADHD-I) you just need persistent problems focusing. Hence my overall point that anybody that thinks they have trouble focusing should be able to just take adderall. ADHD is a spectrum and not a binary condition anyway. You can meet 4 DSM criteria and remain untreated, or meet 5 DSM criteria and take 60mg of amphetamine every day. The "propaganda" is that ADHD is this cut-and-dry binary condition where people with ADHD who take dopaminergic stimulants totally don't get high (go on /r/ADHD and read any post about someone taking medicine for the first time), hyperfocus/tunnel-vision (ie "bad hyperfocus"), chatty, irritiable, or have trouble sleeping. And conversely that people without ADHD who take dopaminergic stimulants will only masturbate, stay up late, dance at a club, or take apart their neighbor's lawnmower. When in reality this is mostly set, setting, conditioning, dose, habits, tolerance, dose metering, and expectations. And as a consequence of this propaganda, mostly because some people benefit a lot from taking dopaminergic stimulants but they also get you high and our society moralizes against that, plenty of people who don't meet the formal requirements for ADHD under the DSM, are subclinical or at the threshold of being clinical, can't afford a $100 copay every 2-4 weeks, or don't have the executive function to seek treatment remain untreated. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3441936/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3441936/
astrange 5y ago
I think he's definitely talking about natural hyperfocus - for one thing the author is in his 50s and I don't think you could get ADHD drugs as easily in 1985. It is hard to control, but it can help you do one thing as long as you're willing to abandon all other parts of your life, like eating/sleeping.

WalterSear 5y ago

> As someone diagnosed with ADHD later in life, a lot of these ADHD superpowers are just the result of taking dopaminergic stimulants. I experienced them before I was aware of my issues, before had ever tried any medication.

opportune 5y ago
I am responding specifically to some of the paragraphs in the essay where the author mentions working non-stop for hours straight on something in a quiet room, while their peers who were "studying" were spending some of that time chatting or bothered by some distraction. Without medication, at least for me and I suspect almost all other people, hyperfocus is something that comes and goes at random and is rarely centered on what it should be (even if I do find it interesting, like real analysis coursework). But even regular people hyperfocus when they take adderall.
- shmageggy 5y ago
  This part of the author’s account struck me as well. Like, yeah it would be great if I could summon the hyperfocus at the right moment, and sometimes impending deadlines/tests cause that, but more often than not it just doesn’t work that way. And if it does, the last-minute cram session is way more stressful and less effective than actually doing the work over time would have been. Yes, the author got that A that one time, but what could he have achieved if he had managed to work on it for more than one night? Or put another way: if you are lucky enough to succeed and level-up through the academia/career/whatever ladder enough despite these problems, you’ll eventually get to a point where cramming doesn’t cut it. You’ll be surrounded by people who are just as smart but who can actually focus at the right times on the right things, and then you’ll struggle (speaking from experience).
  - nicolas_t 5y ago
    I can focus for hours straight in a quiet room but: a) I can't choose what to focus on. So if I need to do something but it's not the latest thing I'm obsessed about, tough luck b) Deadlines help but if it's not something I'm obsessed about and there's no deadlines, not going to happen My experience maps the author, I did well in university because becoming super interested in a subject and reading everything about it for a couple of weeks to the detriment of everything else worked well. Well it worked well in France where we had 2 exams a year and all exams were open book, it didn't work that well in the US where tests were more regular and memorising random uninteresting fact was expected (I lost point in a computer graphics class for not being able to give the name of companies that were members of the Opengl architectural board or when the first version was released... Who cares??) After graduating, I'd say the fact that I get very interested in things and completely focus on them actually helped me in my career. On the other hand, my inability to do paperwork, send invoices on time (been a consultant most of my life), do my taxes etc lost me around 150k so far. So, it's a double edged sword for sure.
    - klysm 5y ago
      This might be the most relatable comment I've ever read on HN - it at least feels better to know I'm not alone in the experience.

klysm 5y ago

> As someone diagnosed with ADHD later in life, a lot of these ADHD superpowers are just the result of taking dopaminergic stimulants. Especially the hyper focus and feeling superior to people staring out the window or failing to heads-down work for several hours straight. This is the complete opposite of my experience. A lot of my life has been dominated by a hyper-focus that feels like it isn't under my control. I would stay awake reading until I can't think anymore with relentless pursuit of something that was entirely non-relevant to critical priorities in my life. I very recently (past couple of months) started taking stimulants, and one of the biggest differences for me was the feeling of desperation to pursue was greatly relaxed. Not gone, but definitely not as intense. I think a lot of the problem here is the definition of focus is overloaded. For me, there are (at least) two distinct levels of focus on different time scales. I define short-term focus as stability on task level executive function. Can you tolerate a brief interruption and go back to what you were doing? Or plan ahead for the next task? This ability is absolutely compromised relative to the population norm for me. I have essentially 0 local stability. On a longer time scale, I think a similar stability notion applies. I frequently get completely engrossed for periods of a few weeks on a topic - beyond healthy levels of interest. But one day, it's just gone - vapid. Time for some serious hand waving: my mental model of what stimulants do to me decrease the activation threshold for picking something in an executive space. By lowering this plane, it's easier for me to remain more stable as the surface is a lot more clear. I'm curious to know if what I'm saying sounds like 100% bullshit though - I haven't really talked through this mental model with anybody.

tbalsam 5y ago

Thanks for sharing, I really appreciated the last half. Good thoughts generally One downside I think after reading here is that there is some wacko in the first half of the post that I feel compelled to comment on a few things. Hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD proper. Stimulants can also make you feel hyperfocused. However, the general reported effects of stimulants are a feeling of "normalcy", not hyperfocus as a result of stimulants. Many people taking stimulants are still symptomatic, albeit managed, meditation long term is generally an excruciatingly (if excruciating) adjunct to stimulants. Second, Adderall often gives the feeling of superfocus and speed to neurotypical individuals but has been statistically shown to give little gain in practice in terms of certain raw metrics. A very strong dopaminergic placebo, as it were. I'd suspect the reason for it being considered effective is that it keeps you glued on tasks for significantly longer than otherwise . It's not propaganda, it's science, you can look at the studies yourself, it's pretty drastic. However there may be another layer on top of that that that could be propagandizing what is otherwise a valid scientific distinction. Much agreed in the last half, I've seen a lot of subclinical dissociative like disorders fall into ADHD, or DPDR, when really there is probably a core condition and several other families lumped in. Such is always the curse of dimensionality reduction. A more root-cause preserving descriptive language set that doesn't rely on the anchor of billing codes would open up the scientific fields a lot. Language determines nomenclature, which determines assumed avenues of exploration. A dimension reduced model of mental health along symptomatic axes will almost always destroy symptom and condition "root cause" linkage. Additionally like you noted anxiety and depression are more symptoms of traumatic disorders and less actual disorders in and of themselves. My pet theory is that's one reason why "depression" is so hard to cure, imagine trying to generically cure "fever" instead of making vaccines, etc. Ramble over! I think (especially later on) we think pretty similarly!

opportune 5y ago
According to the DSM, the way you get identified as having ADHD is by reporting persistent executive function (esp. for inattentive type) and/or impulsivity-hyperactivity problems [0]. Most people grow out of the H-type symptoms as they mature but I is more persistent and suspected to be less diagnosed[1]. What I mean is that anybody who thinks they have executive function problems likely does. Yeah, hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD proper. But if you're unmedicated, for most people it's not something you can control - if you could, it wouldn't really be a disorder at all. I was responding specifically to the following paragraph: "Until I got to college I didn't understand how people could spend hours a day “studying”. When I got there I found out. When my first-year hallmates were “studying” they were looking out the window, playing with their pencils, talking to their roommates, all sorts of stuff that wasn't studying. When I needed to study I would hide somewhere and study. I think the ability to focus on just one thing for a few hours at a time is a great gift that ADD has given me." That's pretty much exactly what it feels like to take adderall. For me taking stimulants like adderall allows me to force focus even on stuff I don't care much about/even when I don't normally feel like it. And yes, this is exactly the way people without ADHD feel too (as you mention - even if you don't have ADHD, you can still focus on-task for a long time and feel smart as fuck). What you mention about dopaminergic stimulants only actually benefitting people with ADHD is likely an oversimplification. To meet the DSM criteria (and thus, in most clinical settings, to get diagnosed with ADHD-I) you just need persistent problems focusing. Hence my overall point that anybody that thinks they have trouble focusing should be able to just take adderall. ADHD is a spectrum and not a binary condition anyway. You can meet 4 DSM criteria and remain untreated, or meet 5 DSM criteria and take 60mg of amphetamine every day. The "propaganda" is that ADHD is this cut-and-dry binary condition where people with ADHD who take dopaminergic stimulants totally don't get high (go on /r/ADHD and read any post about someone taking medicine for the first time), hyperfocus/tunnel-vision (ie "bad hyperfocus"), chatty, irritiable, or have trouble sleeping. And conversely that people without ADHD who take dopaminergic stimulants will only masturbate, stay up late, dance at a club, or take apart their neighbor's lawnmower. When in reality this is mostly set, setting, conditioning, dose, habits, tolerance, dose metering, and expectations. And as a consequence of this propaganda, mostly because some people benefit a lot from taking dopaminergic stimulants but they also get you high and our society moralizes against that, plenty of people who don't meet the formal requirements for ADHD under the DSM, are subclinical or at the threshold of being clinical, can't afford a $100 copay every 2-4 weeks, or don't have the executive function to seek treatment remain untreated. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3441936/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3441936/

astrange 5y ago

I think he's definitely talking about natural hyperfocus - for one thing the author is in his 50s and I don't think you could get ADHD drugs as easily in 1985. It is hard to control, but it can help you do one thing as long as you're willing to abandon all other parts of your life, like eating/sleeping.