5 ms·

Let's just bite the bullet, end the water rights system and auction the water, using the money to pay back the cost. The thing is, peaches, melons, etc aren't

by coryrc 5y ago

Let's just bite the bullet, end the water rights system and auction the water, using the money to pay back the cost. The thing is, peaches, melons, etc aren't going to double in price. Just stop growing alfala: https://ucmanagedrought.ucdavis.edu/Agriculture/Crop_Irrigation_Strategies/Alfalfa/ https://ucmanagedrought.ucdavis.edu/Agriculture/Crop_Irrigat... It's worth little but it's "the largest agricultural user in California" because their water is free.

jeffbee 5y ago
That seems crazy. If people are going to be putting in orchards and vineyards you don't want to wreck their investments by exposing them to a pure highest-bidder free market for water. There is good reason to have state-level planning and intervention for water and food. It just happens that our existing interventions - that a handful of 20th century crooks are guaranteed water at $5/acre foot not adjusted for inflation, forever - are extremely poor examples of such interventions.
- DubiousPusher 5y ago
  Obviously you would auction water leases for terms long enough to ensure the intended economic activity remained viable. It's actually pretty wise IMO. And despite the other poster's straw manning here, I think something similar should be done with land and mineral rights.
kragen 5y ago
You could apply the same approach to the homelessness problem: "Let's just bite the bullet, end the land ownership system and auction the land, using the money to pay back the cost." I guess the idea is that every house is up for rent every year, rent decided by auction and payable to the government, who then compensates the former owners? Are you in favor of that approach to land tenure? If not, why would water rights be different?
- cycomanic 5y ago
  The solution is actually straight forward. Recognise that property rights didn't just start with the Europeans coming to the americas, so all current land ownership is illegal. Now this obviously would open a whole different can of worms, but I always find it amazing that people argue you can't do things because of property rights while all land ownership in the US is essentially based on illegally taking the rights of previous occupiers.
  - kragen 5y ago
    It's not illegal, the thieves passed laws to legalize it. Illegal and immoral aren't the same. I think your usage of the word "solution" here is also at odds with common usage.
  - replygirl 5y ago
    > property rights didn't just start with the Europeans coming to the americas, so all current land ownership is illegal ehh, property rights here sorta did come out of colonization, much of the land was bought from communities who didn't have a concept of private property. it's not a technical issue of legality, it's that this was unjust and wrong. > Now this obviously would open a whole different can of worms potentially undermining the legal and economic foundation of contemporary tribal sovereignty, for one.
    - kragen 5y ago
      All Native American communities had concepts of land tenure, even if it was collective rather than individual.
    - msrenee 5y ago
      I think you're missing a bunch of massacres and forced relocations as far as how we obtained the land.
- slavik81 5y ago
  In some ways, a land-value tax is kind of like that. A LVT of x% is equivalent to the government taking x% of your land and making you buy it back from them at market value. Perhaps that indicates that the more palatable solution would be a tax on the exercise of water rights.

by coryrc 5y ago

jeffbee 5y ago

That seems crazy. If people are going to be putting in orchards and vineyards you don't want to wreck their investments by exposing them to a pure highest-bidder free market for water. There is good reason to have state-level planning and intervention for water and food. It just happens that our existing interventions - that a handful of 20th century crooks are guaranteed water at $5/acre foot not adjusted for inflation, forever - are extremely poor examples of such interventions.

DubiousPusher 5y ago
Obviously you would auction water leases for terms long enough to ensure the intended economic activity remained viable. It's actually pretty wise IMO. And despite the other poster's straw manning here, I think something similar should be done with land and mineral rights.

kragen 5y ago

You could apply the same approach to the homelessness problem: "Let's just bite the bullet, end the land ownership system and auction the land, using the money to pay back the cost." I guess the idea is that every house is up for rent every year, rent decided by auction and payable to the government, who then compensates the former owners? Are you in favor of that approach to land tenure? If not, why would water rights be different?

cycomanic 5y ago
The solution is actually straight forward. Recognise that property rights didn't just start with the Europeans coming to the americas, so all current land ownership is illegal. Now this obviously would open a whole different can of worms, but I always find it amazing that people argue you can't do things because of property rights while all land ownership in the US is essentially based on illegally taking the rights of previous occupiers.
- kragen 5y ago
  It's not illegal, the thieves passed laws to legalize it. Illegal and immoral aren't the same. I think your usage of the word "solution" here is also at odds with common usage.
- replygirl 5y ago
  > property rights didn't just start with the Europeans coming to the americas, so all current land ownership is illegal ehh, property rights here sorta did come out of colonization, much of the land was bought from communities who didn't have a concept of private property. it's not a technical issue of legality, it's that this was unjust and wrong. > Now this obviously would open a whole different can of worms potentially undermining the legal and economic foundation of contemporary tribal sovereignty, for one.
  - kragen 5y ago
    All Native American communities had concepts of land tenure, even if it was collective rather than individual.
  - msrenee 5y ago
    I think you're missing a bunch of massacres and forced relocations as far as how we obtained the land.
slavik81 5y ago
In some ways, a land-value tax is kind of like that. A LVT of x% is equivalent to the government taking x% of your land and making you buy it back from them at market value. Perhaps that indicates that the more palatable solution would be a tax on the exercise of water rights.