5 ms·

Pbd, can anyone really learn to code?

by gbasin 4y ago

leesec 4y ago
Probably not lol. And even more wouldn't want too. But many can with the right encouragement and guidance.
- goldcd 4y ago
  There are also "code adjacent" jobs. Aside from a few weeks training on an unrelated Masters I'm IT-unqualified, but got a job with an IT company making software for an industry. I started out coding, but knew I was never going to be great at it - although it can be really satisfying to make something 'elegant' that's yours. Then moved into a more customer-facing role, trying to capture what they wanted the software to do. Learnt elegance was maybe of less importance, than solving real world problems. Then moved into Product Management, which was maybe the first time I felt a 'good fit'. Gave me the opportunity to come up with 'big vague ideas/themes', and defer the implementation to the architects and devs who were actually good at the job. You try to break it down into consumable chunks - but it's on you to make it all come together. Final thought is just that even outside of dev, I now realize there's a massive spectrum of people within it. Some want you to absolutely nail-down the down criteria and will deliver against it. Others want to understand why, and if you can explain it relatively succinctly, will come back with suggestions on how stuff can be improved. I guess my point is that excellent coders are required - but the "rockstar coder trope" overlooks the vast majority of people working in IT. e.g. If you've say spent a decade serving food in or running a restaurant, you've got a way better understanding of what the requirements of a POS system are, than the people creating it. If you want to move to IT, you need to learn the vocab and grammar, but you don't have to be fluent - bring in your experience. IT can only solve an understood problem, and being able to articulate that is a prerequisite to a solution.
  - leesec 4y ago
    Definitely. There needs to be QA's and Designers and PM's and all sorts of roles within tech. Even having a little technical experience in some of these roles will be a big advantage.
  - abledon 4y ago
    do you think Product Management works harder than devs from what you see?
    - goldcd 4y ago
      I can only speak for myself, but I think the answer is "No.. sortof.. it depends.. maybe?" Writing an epic and a dozen US is definitely a lot quicker for one person to do, than it is for a team to implement it. So from that side, PM does a lot less work. Plus there's dev work like platform architecture, upgrading, platform, change management, automated test-cases etc, that I don't even have to think about. There's a massive multiplier there. Maybe 1 day a week writing requirements can keep a team busy and another day for answering questions, sprint ceremonies etc (story review, signing off demos) - but I'd say less than half my time is dealing with the actual productive work. Dev team just functions on 2-week sprints and the commitments they've given - so hard for it to go too-sideways, and they're safely insulated. Majority of my time goes on the "meta-work" - trying to manage what goes into those sprints. Customer requirements/placation - they don't (and shouldn't) have to give a toss about our internal sprints - so somebody has to ensure they'll be happy/not-going-to-sue in 18 months. Also the budget side is a complete Pain-in-the-arse. Your Agile trainer imagines there's some single pot of money to splash about however you choose to spend most efficiently. Reality is you're fighting for little top-down piles on internal accounts and then trying to fit the work you've done to them.
jacquesm 4y ago
Define 'code'. The difference between a complex spreadsheet and an application program isn't all that large, and with no-code / low-code platforms as a stepping stone lots of people who otherwise would never get into programming because the first level abstractions are too far away from what they want to accomplish now find themselves drawn into coding. Programming is difficult, possibly unnecessarily so. If we made programming easier more people could do it. To some extent there is gatekeeping, to some extent it really is a hard to acquire skill if you want to be able to do it at a very high level. But just like talking, everybody can program at some level, but not everybody has the interest to want to do so at the level of low level code.
MaximumYComb 4y ago
I don't think so. Maybe 20-50% of people can learn to be decent at programming. Maybe less than 10% can be really good. The simple fact that you're on this website makes me think you can probably learn if you put in the effort.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  Counterpoint, I've been on this site for over a decade now and am not a good programmer. But yes, I guess effort, experience, talent, and luck are the best cocktail for a really good programmer.
  - MaximumYComb 4y ago
    Not everybody on this site would make a good programmer but if I picked a random person here I would have better results than if I picked a random person from the rest of the population. Choosing to spend personal time somewhere like here indicates a few personality traits.
nicoburns 4y ago
Like pretty much any skill, anyone can learn to do it, but some will have more natural aptitude than others. I find coding easy and improvised comedy nightmarishly difficult, for others it will be the other way around.
65 4y ago
Yes, but not everyone has the talent to learn quickly, get good enough to get a job, and to keep that job. I'll give a metaphor. I always wanted to learn how to kickflip as a kid, but I sucked at skateboarding. It took me 10 years, many pairs of shoes, and tens of thousands of tries later to land a kickflip. Can I kickflip? Yes, barely. But does that mean it would be worth my time to pursue skateboarding beyond doing kickflips? Probably not. I just don't have the talent for it. Other people learned to kickflip their first few months of skateboarding.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Pbd, can anyone really learn to code? Just as with writing, there's some disabilities that will make it impossible or impractical, but otherwise, with sufficient effort, yes. Also just as with writing, not everyone can be good enough to have a job centering the skill, especially on the strength of that skill alone (some will be able to leverage moderate skill in the target area plus skill in some other area.) Like writing, but perhaps somewhat less so than writing, it may be useful even in jobs that don't formally center the skills (subprofessional writing skills are useful in jobs that aren't “writer”, subprofessional programming skills in jobs that aren't “programmer”.)

Pbd, can anyone really learn to code?

by gbasin 4y ago

Pbd, can anyone really learn to code?

leesec 4y ago

Probably not lol. And even more wouldn't want too. But many can with the right encouragement and guidance.

goldcd 4y ago
There are also "code adjacent" jobs. Aside from a few weeks training on an unrelated Masters I'm IT-unqualified, but got a job with an IT company making software for an industry. I started out coding, but knew I was never going to be great at it - although it can be really satisfying to make something 'elegant' that's yours. Then moved into a more customer-facing role, trying to capture what they wanted the software to do. Learnt elegance was maybe of less importance, than solving real world problems. Then moved into Product Management, which was maybe the first time I felt a 'good fit'. Gave me the opportunity to come up with 'big vague ideas/themes', and defer the implementation to the architects and devs who were actually good at the job. You try to break it down into consumable chunks - but it's on you to make it all come together. Final thought is just that even outside of dev, I now realize there's a massive spectrum of people within it. Some want you to absolutely nail-down the down criteria and will deliver against it. Others want to understand why, and if you can explain it relatively succinctly, will come back with suggestions on how stuff can be improved. I guess my point is that excellent coders are required - but the "rockstar coder trope" overlooks the vast majority of people working in IT. e.g. If you've say spent a decade serving food in or running a restaurant, you've got a way better understanding of what the requirements of a POS system are, than the people creating it. If you want to move to IT, you need to learn the vocab and grammar, but you don't have to be fluent - bring in your experience. IT can only solve an understood problem, and being able to articulate that is a prerequisite to a solution.
- leesec 4y ago
  Definitely. There needs to be QA's and Designers and PM's and all sorts of roles within tech. Even having a little technical experience in some of these roles will be a big advantage.
- abledon 4y ago
  do you think Product Management works harder than devs from what you see?
  - goldcd 4y ago
    I can only speak for myself, but I think the answer is "No.. sortof.. it depends.. maybe?" Writing an epic and a dozen US is definitely a lot quicker for one person to do, than it is for a team to implement it. So from that side, PM does a lot less work. Plus there's dev work like platform architecture, upgrading, platform, change management, automated test-cases etc, that I don't even have to think about. There's a massive multiplier there. Maybe 1 day a week writing requirements can keep a team busy and another day for answering questions, sprint ceremonies etc (story review, signing off demos) - but I'd say less than half my time is dealing with the actual productive work. Dev team just functions on 2-week sprints and the commitments they've given - so hard for it to go too-sideways, and they're safely insulated. Majority of my time goes on the "meta-work" - trying to manage what goes into those sprints. Customer requirements/placation - they don't (and shouldn't) have to give a toss about our internal sprints - so somebody has to ensure they'll be happy/not-going-to-sue in 18 months. Also the budget side is a complete Pain-in-the-arse. Your Agile trainer imagines there's some single pot of money to splash about however you choose to spend most efficiently. Reality is you're fighting for little top-down piles on internal accounts and then trying to fit the work you've done to them.

jacquesm 4y ago

Define 'code'. The difference between a complex spreadsheet and an application program isn't all that large, and with no-code / low-code platforms as a stepping stone lots of people who otherwise would never get into programming because the first level abstractions are too far away from what they want to accomplish now find themselves drawn into coding. Programming is difficult, possibly unnecessarily so. If we made programming easier more people could do it. To some extent there is gatekeeping, to some extent it really is a hard to acquire skill if you want to be able to do it at a very high level. But just like talking, everybody can program at some level, but not everybody has the interest to want to do so at the level of low level code.

MaximumYComb 4y ago

I don't think so. Maybe 20-50% of people can learn to be decent at programming. Maybe less than 10% can be really good. The simple fact that you're on this website makes me think you can probably learn if you put in the effort.

formerkrogemp 4y ago
Counterpoint, I've been on this site for over a decade now and am not a good programmer. But yes, I guess effort, experience, talent, and luck are the best cocktail for a really good programmer.
- MaximumYComb 4y ago
  Not everybody on this site would make a good programmer but if I picked a random person here I would have better results than if I picked a random person from the rest of the population. Choosing to spend personal time somewhere like here indicates a few personality traits.

nicoburns 4y ago

Like pretty much any skill, anyone can learn to do it, but some will have more natural aptitude than others. I find coding easy and improvised comedy nightmarishly difficult, for others it will be the other way around.

65 4y ago

Yes, but not everyone has the talent to learn quickly, get good enough to get a job, and to keep that job. I'll give a metaphor. I always wanted to learn how to kickflip as a kid, but I sucked at skateboarding. It took me 10 years, many pairs of shoes, and tens of thousands of tries later to land a kickflip. Can I kickflip? Yes, barely. But does that mean it would be worth my time to pursue skateboarding beyond doing kickflips? Probably not. I just don't have the talent for it. Other people learned to kickflip their first few months of skateboarding.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Pbd, can anyone really learn to code? Just as with writing, there's some disabilities that will make it impossible or impractical, but otherwise, with sufficient effort, yes. Also just as with writing, not everyone can be good enough to have a job centering the skill, especially on the strength of that skill alone (some will be able to leverage moderate skill in the target area plus skill in some other area.) Like writing, but perhaps somewhat less so than writing, it may be useful even in jobs that don't formally center the skills (subprofessional writing skills are useful in jobs that aren't “writer”, subprofessional programming skills in jobs that aren't “programmer”.)