4 ms·

Entanglement and superposition are equivalent concepts in any physical theory

31 points by jbotz 4y ago

SemanticStrengh 4y ago
However, as underappreciated as it is, statistical theories are efficient maps, not territories. Quantum mechanics is a clever way to maximize knowledge and minimize unknowns but in all honesty it does not represent at all reality, only a knowledge map, and therefore famous paradoxes become apparent artifacts of those leaking abstractions. Theories that have actual causal content would necessitate some explanations of what is going on, AKA hidden variables theories, however the search space is huge and the usefulness not that high. However the double slit experiment is still a real mystery though. If some readers have some cognitive resources to allocate though I would much prefer them to analyze this extremely underlooked paper that is the first on earth to make canonical quantization of gravity works for quantum mechanics: https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9706055.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9706055.pdf
- ncmncm 4y ago
  A paper that spends most of its introduction on opinions about permissible modes of reasoning under social convention is starting out badly. Everything expressed may be necessary, but it would be better to come to them than to start out with them.
  - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
    It is needed given the strong cognitive biases at hand here e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Fallacy_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Fallacy_effect what prevent progress towards quantum gravity has more to do with social inertia than technicalities tbh.
- nh23423fefe 4y ago
  This seems like an asserted distinction with no content. > statistical theories are efficient maps ... Quantum mechanics ... does not represent at all reality I don't see how this is true at all. It just seems like quibble between the difference between something being a description of a phenomenon vs something making predictions correlated with experiment. Like what is the difference. Seems like you are smuggling an assumption like, "we know reality isn't really this way" But you don't
  - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
    https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.10484 https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.10484 More importantly this nobel paper explain the different flaws of the ontologic interpretation https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/TOPICAL-REVIEW%3A-Testing-the-limits-of-quantum-state-Leggett/4e8a67d43e4727a5a494b1be9ff8e26ba234d3fd https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/TOPICAL-REVIEW%3A-Test...
whatshisface 4y ago
Any physical theory except for classical wave mechanics... (this is not an objection to the paper, which claims relevance only for a highly technical class of models called "general probabilistic theories," which carry in enough assumptions to make the claim true, but rather a warning about not interpreting the title apart from the abstract)
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  How is superposition of waves in a guitar string different from superposition of waves in an atom?
  - philipov 4y ago
    When waves overlap on a guitar string they are two different waves whose state covers the same area. A wave superposition in an atom is a single wave that has a position state that's more complex than being in a single location.
    - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
      There is a single location, the wave is just a probability density map
      - whatshisface 4y ago
        There's only a single location in the aftermath of a measurement that takes infinite energy to make.
        SemanticStrengh 4y ago
        https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/TOPICAL-REVIEW%3A-Testing-the-limits-of-quantum-state-Leggett/4e8a67d43e4727a5a494b1be9ff8e26ba234d3fd https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/TOPICAL-REVIEW%3A-Test...
    - drran 4y ago
adamnemecek 4y ago
I have written up on some things that are somewhat relevant https://github.com/adamnemecek/adjoint/ https://github.com/adamnemecek/adjoint/
akira2501 4y ago
If we see a high velocity object travelling past, we experience a length expansion along it's path when trying to measure the object. From the perspective of the object, the entire universe contracts by the same factor along it's path. It sees the phenomenon as length contraction. I'm sorry for the framing of the question.. but is this a way to think about the underlying phenomenon of entanglement?
- aeternum 4y ago
  We see a length contraction, but that aside, I've always thought of this question as super interesting. From the POV of the photon for example, the universe is basically flat. A 2d timeless plane. From this POV, the double-slit experimental results seem much more clear, it's more intuitive that the photon can both interfere with itself and appear in just one spot, as it experiences both the number of slits and hits the screen simultaneously. From the photon's POV, there's no 'delayed choice quantum eraser'. I believe the main issue with this line of reasoning, that length/time contraction are instrumental to entanglement is that entanglement phenomena like the double-slit also works with larger particles that are not necessarily travelling near the speed of light.
- nh23423fefe 4y ago
  > we experience a length expansion backwards. we measure contraction

31 points by jbotz 4y ago

However, as underappreciated as it is, statistical theories are efficient maps, not territories. Quantum mechanics is a clever way to maximize knowledge and minimize unknowns but in all honesty it does not represent at all reality, only a knowledge map, and therefore famous paradoxes become apparent artifacts of those leaking abstractions. Theories that have actual causal content would necessitate some explanations of what is going on, AKA hidden variables theories, however the search space is huge and the usefulness not that high. However the double slit experiment is still a real mystery though. If some readers have some cognitive resources to allocate though I would much prefer them to analyze this extremely underlooked paper that is the first on earth to make canonical quantization of gravity works for quantum mechanics: https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9706055.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9706055.pdf

ncmncm 4y ago
A paper that spends most of its introduction on opinions about permissible modes of reasoning under social convention is starting out badly. Everything expressed may be necessary, but it would be better to come to them than to start out with them.
- SemanticStrengh 4y ago
  It is needed given the strong cognitive biases at hand here e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Fallacy_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Fallacy_effect what prevent progress towards quantum gravity has more to do with social inertia than technicalities tbh.
nh23423fefe 4y ago
This seems like an asserted distinction with no content. > statistical theories are efficient maps ... Quantum mechanics ... does not represent at all reality I don't see how this is true at all. It just seems like quibble between the difference between something being a description of a phenomenon vs something making predictions correlated with experiment. Like what is the difference. Seems like you are smuggling an assumption like, "we know reality isn't really this way" But you don't
- SemanticStrengh 4y ago
  https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.10484 https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.10484 More importantly this nobel paper explain the different flaws of the ontologic interpretation https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/TOPICAL-REVIEW%3A-Testing-the-limits-of-quantum-state-Leggett/4e8a67d43e4727a5a494b1be9ff8e26ba234d3fd https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/TOPICAL-REVIEW%3A-Test...

whatshisface 4y ago

Any physical theory except for classical wave mechanics... (this is not an objection to the paper, which claims relevance only for a highly technical class of models called "general probabilistic theories," which carry in enough assumptions to make the claim true, but rather a warning about not interpreting the title apart from the abstract)

dr_dshiv 4y ago
How is superposition of waves in a guitar string different from superposition of waves in an atom?
- philipov 4y ago
  When waves overlap on a guitar string they are two different waves whose state covers the same area. A wave superposition in an atom is a single wave that has a position state that's more complex than being in a single location.
  - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
    There is a single location, the wave is just a probability density map
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      There's only a single location in the aftermath of a measurement that takes infinite energy to make.
      - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
        https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/TOPICAL-REVIEW%3A-Testing-the-limits-of-quantum-state-Leggett/4e8a67d43e4727a5a494b1be9ff8e26ba234d3fd https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/TOPICAL-REVIEW%3A-Test...
  - drran 4y ago

adamnemecek 4y ago

I have written up on some things that are somewhat relevant https://github.com/adamnemecek/adjoint/ https://github.com/adamnemecek/adjoint/

akira2501 4y ago

If we see a high velocity object travelling past, we experience a length expansion along it's path when trying to measure the object. From the perspective of the object, the entire universe contracts by the same factor along it's path. It sees the phenomenon as length contraction. I'm sorry for the framing of the question.. but is this a way to think about the underlying phenomenon of entanglement?

aeternum 4y ago
We see a length contraction, but that aside, I've always thought of this question as super interesting. From the POV of the photon for example, the universe is basically flat. A 2d timeless plane. From this POV, the double-slit experimental results seem much more clear, it's more intuitive that the photon can both interfere with itself and appear in just one spot, as it experiences both the number of slits and hits the screen simultaneously. From the photon's POV, there's no 'delayed choice quantum eraser'. I believe the main issue with this line of reasoning, that length/time contraction are instrumental to entanglement is that entanglement phenomena like the double-slit also works with larger particles that are not necessarily travelling near the speed of light.
nh23423fefe 4y ago
> we experience a length expansion backwards. we measure contraction