8 ms·

Does anyone have confirmation for the old rumour that there is high demand for COBOL engineers because of legacy systems eg in banks? And how does one go about

by t_mann 5y ago

Does anyone have confirmation for the old rumour that there is high demand for COBOL engineers because of legacy systems eg in banks? And how does one go about finding these opportunities? I remember once talking to a freelance engineer, he didn't do COBOL but something similar in the sense that a lot of banks had legacy systems with that technology and that people had been saying since the 80's that it'd soon be extinct. He mentioned a (paid) database service which he used to source his clients, he was based in Germany, as were most of his clients. Anyone have an idea what that could be? I'd totally be down for learning an obscure language and deep-diving into sensitive systems that have been providing value for a long time already. But basic economic logic tells me that there won't be a free lunch there, I mean people pick up new programming languages all the time.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago
Yes, it's true. My dad works for a large credit card processor that runs a ton of COBOL and they have a really hard time finding people. The big problem those guys are running into is that they aren't paying anywhere close to market rates for engineers working in more modern stacks. Senior developer pay tops out around $120k last I checked and they've been reliant on cheap offshore contractors for years now to insulate themselves from paying modern dev wages in the US. Funny thing though, the contracting firms are now notifying these companies that they won't be supplying COBOL developers into the future because there's a lot more money to be made contracting out devs in modern stacks than COBOL. It doesn't get a ton of attention because nobody can see the future, but hearing my dad talk about his company makes me slightly concerned about the future of our digital payments infrastructure.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  Yeah its kinda scary. People meme it but so much of the modern world relies on an aging stock of retiree's to come in on contract and do a thing then leave to be sustainable. It's not the amount of stuff that runs COBOL thats a problem, it's how critical that infrastructure is to human society - I don't think that's an overstatement.
  - thr0wawayf00 5y ago
    > it's how critical that infrastructure is to human society Exactly, and the regression horror stories I hear are unbelievable because these codebases are so old. A while back, a major customer of this processor transmitted a payment reconciliation file that had bad headers in it and brought down the entire reconciliation system (billions of dollars a day flow through this platform). No basic input validation, no escape hatch for corrupted files, nothing. I couldn't believe it when I heard the story. The crazy part was how long it would take to harden the system against bad input like that because a lot of that code was written 20-30 years ago. People working in modern systems think they know tech debt...
- fredsmith219 4y ago
  You are right. I started my career in COBOL and I know my way around a mainframe and openvms. When I looked into jobs, they were paying far less than I can make coding in Java, Javascript or C#. They won't pay a decent hourly, so they won't find people. We're out here, but won't take a pay cut.
  - soco 4y ago
    This is the same discussion as about lacking nurses or whatever "essential workers" which we don't want to pay yet miss them so dearly. And the solution is right there in front of our noses...
breakfastduck 5y ago
Anecdotal of course but I had a taxi driver the other day (small town in north UK) who mentioned, after asking me what I do, that he gets about 1 job a year (from a contact that has reached out because the place can't get anyone else) on COBOL from banks / FS who just need a little thing adding or some bug fixing. He said he basically gets a big holiday every year and some money to put away from it. Hasn't touched any other IT job since early 2000s. I know its a meme at this point but there is definitely some sort of demand, I think the problem is that, while the stock of people is diminishing, they want battle hardened experts to come in for a few grand a day and do a thing and leave. Not a young developer wanting salary with a big backlog of work.
Terry_Roll 5y ago
India was sanctioned in the 90's bythe US (supposedly for being communist leaning) so they couldnt get PC's which meant all they could learn on was mainframes. In the late 80's early 90's Cobol programmers were being laid off by big companies, as it was all going PC, the COBOL millennium bug stuff was outsourced to Indians because those companies who laid off their staff couldnt get them back. Its mainly a rumour for the UK and possibly other Western countries. Tesco bank, TSB all use PC's, the TSB banking system was a rehashed share trading platform which is why they had problems a few years back, seems no one likes old school db transactions. Tesco is full on in MS's pocket as is most of the NHS systems, and these are all online, when you do your online Tesco shop you connect to the store that will do the delivery because every store has a different product range and no mainframe or server could handle that for the whole country. You your GP surgery systems, regional health trusts, are all online which then gives you an idea of who is behind Wannacry considering the level of spooky surveillance of telecoms here in the UK.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  That is how some Indian IT offshoring companies grew big, thanks to those COBOL projects.
  - Terry_Roll 4y ago
    Extremely likely but it was a way for other country's to get around US sanctions, because sometimes just sometimes the law is not incredibly vague.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      I can tell for a fact that was the case with TCS, thus likely with others as well.
tapland 5y ago
There is absolutely demand. I've been doing cobol for four years and have banks and insurance companies asking me to come in for an interview all the time. But no remote teams, no companies ready to offer any support for relocation and not a pay making a move worth it until I've built up some savings. I think the offers I've seen in Scandinavia are 35-40k/month for a dev with some experience, and very slow wage increases. It's true there is a lot of demand, but it's not true that it pays a ton. The devs returning from retirement with 20 years of experience with the specific systems can, and do, charge a lot though.
- mb7733 5y ago
  I'm confused, is 40k/month is not paying a ton? That's half a million a year of whatever denomination.
  - drivers99 5y ago
    If it’s kroner (Norway) that’s $51,000 a year. So maybe not that either.
  - ccakes 5y ago
    https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/ https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/
    - mb7733 4y ago
      They didn't specify the currency or the country. That's why I asked.
      - tapland 4y ago
        I did forget to specify. It's what I've seen in DKK and SEK. Not USD.
  - wildzzz 5y ago
    Might be in SEK or NOK which is about a tenth the value of USD.
omoikane 5y ago
There is definitely demand for ABAP, which is influenced by COBOL, and has a similar looking syntax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABAP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABAP
chasil 5y ago
I personally had to write a small fragment of PL/SQL last month that interfaced with some COBOL that manipulated Rdb (new development required on that side). We are down a few developers in that arena.
jimt1234 4y ago
Yes, it's true. My mother was a COBOL programmer for nearly 30 years. She retired in 2012 and quickly got bored. I convinced her to consider contract work, to ask for the sky - short-term contract, 100% remote, lots of money, etc. She got a ton of offers. However, she dismissed them all. The process convinced her that she was really retired, and was never, ever going back to work, no matter how much money was involved.
albroland 4y ago
I've discussed it on HN previously, but out of college I took a position doing development on IBM zOS mainframes writing HLASM and COBOL. When I left that company after two years (around 2014), I was making roughly 75k. The salary bands I saw capped at about 120k. I moved to NYC and joined an A stage startup and instantly was making 110k as a junior working on a rails stack with zero experience. In the following years I'd proceed to continue getting substantial compensation increases, where everyone I know in mainframe land still appears capped ~100-120k. So, frankly speaking, there is plenty of demand but it does not pay anywhere close to market rate for US based engineers.

by t_mann 5y ago

thr0wawayf00 5y ago

Yes, it's true. My dad works for a large credit card processor that runs a ton of COBOL and they have a really hard time finding people. The big problem those guys are running into is that they aren't paying anywhere close to market rates for engineers working in more modern stacks. Senior developer pay tops out around $120k last I checked and they've been reliant on cheap offshore contractors for years now to insulate themselves from paying modern dev wages in the US. Funny thing though, the contracting firms are now notifying these companies that they won't be supplying COBOL developers into the future because there's a lot more money to be made contracting out devs in modern stacks than COBOL. It doesn't get a ton of attention because nobody can see the future, but hearing my dad talk about his company makes me slightly concerned about the future of our digital payments infrastructure.

breakfastduck 5y ago
Yeah its kinda scary. People meme it but so much of the modern world relies on an aging stock of retiree's to come in on contract and do a thing then leave to be sustainable. It's not the amount of stuff that runs COBOL thats a problem, it's how critical that infrastructure is to human society - I don't think that's an overstatement.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  > it's how critical that infrastructure is to human society Exactly, and the regression horror stories I hear are unbelievable because these codebases are so old. A while back, a major customer of this processor transmitted a payment reconciliation file that had bad headers in it and brought down the entire reconciliation system (billions of dollars a day flow through this platform). No basic input validation, no escape hatch for corrupted files, nothing. I couldn't believe it when I heard the story. The crazy part was how long it would take to harden the system against bad input like that because a lot of that code was written 20-30 years ago. People working in modern systems think they know tech debt...
fredsmith219 4y ago
You are right. I started my career in COBOL and I know my way around a mainframe and openvms. When I looked into jobs, they were paying far less than I can make coding in Java, Javascript or C#. They won't pay a decent hourly, so they won't find people. We're out here, but won't take a pay cut.
- soco 4y ago
  This is the same discussion as about lacking nurses or whatever "essential workers" which we don't want to pay yet miss them so dearly. And the solution is right there in front of our noses...

breakfastduck 5y ago

Anecdotal of course but I had a taxi driver the other day (small town in north UK) who mentioned, after asking me what I do, that he gets about 1 job a year (from a contact that has reached out because the place can't get anyone else) on COBOL from banks / FS who just need a little thing adding or some bug fixing. He said he basically gets a big holiday every year and some money to put away from it. Hasn't touched any other IT job since early 2000s. I know its a meme at this point but there is definitely some sort of demand, I think the problem is that, while the stock of people is diminishing, they want battle hardened experts to come in for a few grand a day and do a thing and leave. Not a young developer wanting salary with a big backlog of work.

Terry_Roll 5y ago

India was sanctioned in the 90's bythe US (supposedly for being communist leaning) so they couldnt get PC's which meant all they could learn on was mainframes. In the late 80's early 90's Cobol programmers were being laid off by big companies, as it was all going PC, the COBOL millennium bug stuff was outsourced to Indians because those companies who laid off their staff couldnt get them back. Its mainly a rumour for the UK and possibly other Western countries. Tesco bank, TSB all use PC's, the TSB banking system was a rehashed share trading platform which is why they had problems a few years back, seems no one likes old school db transactions. Tesco is full on in MS's pocket as is most of the NHS systems, and these are all online, when you do your online Tesco shop you connect to the store that will do the delivery because every store has a different product range and no mainframe or server could handle that for the whole country. You your GP surgery systems, regional health trusts, are all online which then gives you an idea of who is behind Wannacry considering the level of spooky surveillance of telecoms here in the UK.

pjmlp 4y ago
That is how some Indian IT offshoring companies grew big, thanks to those COBOL projects.
- Terry_Roll 4y ago
  Extremely likely but it was a way for other country's to get around US sanctions, because sometimes just sometimes the law is not incredibly vague.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    I can tell for a fact that was the case with TCS, thus likely with others as well.

tapland 5y ago

There is absolutely demand. I've been doing cobol for four years and have banks and insurance companies asking me to come in for an interview all the time. But no remote teams, no companies ready to offer any support for relocation and not a pay making a move worth it until I've built up some savings. I think the offers I've seen in Scandinavia are 35-40k/month for a dev with some experience, and very slow wage increases. It's true there is a lot of demand, but it's not true that it pays a ton. The devs returning from retirement with 20 years of experience with the specific systems can, and do, charge a lot though.

mb7733 5y ago
I'm confused, is 40k/month is not paying a ton? That's half a million a year of whatever denomination.
- drivers99 5y ago
  If it’s kroner (Norway) that’s $51,000 a year. So maybe not that either.
- ccakes 5y ago
  https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/ https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/
  - mb7733 4y ago
    They didn't specify the currency or the country. That's why I asked.
    - tapland 4y ago
      I did forget to specify. It's what I've seen in DKK and SEK. Not USD.
- wildzzz 5y ago
  Might be in SEK or NOK which is about a tenth the value of USD.

omoikane 5y ago

There is definitely demand for ABAP, which is influenced by COBOL, and has a similar looking syntax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABAP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABAP

chasil 5y ago

I personally had to write a small fragment of PL/SQL last month that interfaced with some COBOL that manipulated Rdb (new development required on that side). We are down a few developers in that arena.

jimt1234 4y ago

Yes, it's true. My mother was a COBOL programmer for nearly 30 years. She retired in 2012 and quickly got bored. I convinced her to consider contract work, to ask for the sky - short-term contract, 100% remote, lots of money, etc. She got a ton of offers. However, she dismissed them all. The process convinced her that she was really retired, and was never, ever going back to work, no matter how much money was involved.

albroland 4y ago

I've discussed it on HN previously, but out of college I took a position doing development on IBM zOS mainframes writing HLASM and COBOL. When I left that company after two years (around 2014), I was making roughly 75k. The salary bands I saw capped at about 120k. I moved to NYC and joined an A stage startup and instantly was making 110k as a junior working on a rails stack with zero experience. In the following years I'd proceed to continue getting substantial compensation increases, where everyone I know in mainframe land still appears capped ~100-120k. So, frankly speaking, there is plenty of demand but it does not pay anywhere close to market rate for US based engineers.