7 ms·

COBOL Programming Course

103 points by marcodiego 5y ago

ultimape 5y ago
LEARNING COBOL IS VERY GOOD IF YOU WANNA INFILTRATE AND HACK LEGACY SYSTEMS.
- the_af 5y ago
  I think you meant: IDENTIFICATION SECTION. AUTHOR ULTIMAPE. PROGRAM DIVISION. CODE STARTS ANY MINUTE NOW. YEAH, REALLY. LEARN COBOL GIVING HACKING RESULTING IN INFILTRATION. CODE ENDS HERE. REALLY. THE END.
vmsp 5y ago
This project made the rounds a couple of years (months?) ago. Always accompanied by mentions of companies having a hard time hiring engineers to work on COBOL codebases. I've never had the luck of stumbling on one of these. Maybe because I'm not based in the US or just didn't look hard enough. It'd certainly be cool to take a peek at that code.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  About 20+ years ago a friend of mine and I had just started a company in Denmark, and we got a call from a bank that wanted to know if we had any experts in 'protocol' design, and if we had anyone that knew COBOL. These were not our specialties but at least have had one contact.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Banks, insurance companies, in-house IT at large corps and govs is where you will still find COBOL. By the way if you are already a reasonably good programmer you can pick up COBOL in a few weeks. It's a very straightforward language. Getting familiar with how things are done on a mainframe will take longer.
    - joshocar 5y ago
      My friend is a manager at a big insurance company. They have a bunch of legacy stuff in COBOL.
    - the_af 5y ago
      Agreed on everything you say, except I still find it curious why these seasonal "let's learn COBOL" posts find a place here on HN. I mean, yes, there's a challenge in navigating boring legacy COBOL banking systems, which follow no conventions, were created before code versioning was a thing, or best practices for that matter. Yes, it's challenging and therefore of interest to hackers, but still... ... striking my fingers with a hammer is similarly interesting and challenging, but why would I want to do it?
      - throwawayboise 5y ago
        I would not be so sure on the "follow no conventions, created before code versioning was a thing" COBOL shops in my (admittedly limited experience in the early 1990s) had conventions, standard skeleton code for various things (referred to as copybooks) and source code control of a sort (very centralized of course, since everything was centralized). They definitely had separated "regions" for dev, test, and production where I worked, and a process for moving code changes to production. In my experience (as a staff consultant with a major firm), if they had consultants building systems, they certainly had a defined methodology, as consulting firms love that. I'll grant that there may have been a wide range of variance on this sort of thing. Just as there is today in many shops. I'm also not trying to sell anyone on the idea. Going back to COBOL would be about the last thing I'd want to do personally, even if there were good money in it.
        the_af 5y ago
        Interesting. That wasn't my experience working at a bank, or my dad's, but it was the same bank ;)
- the_af 5y ago
  Nah, your intuition is right: there are not that many jobs for COBOL (not outside boring legacy maintenance jobs for banking systems). Unlike what recurring posts on HN would have you believe, it's also not the way to a high paying job, either.
- christophilus 5y ago
  I worked with a guy who had the systems manual for a US nuclear missile facility. (I have no idea how he got his hands on it.) It had a bunch of COBOL in it.
owyn 5y ago
It's Sunday, my dad was a COBOL programmer, sure I'll spend 15 minutes checking it out. The main site link on GitHub is a 404 though [0]. The "getting started" link in the README points to a release notes page and do you have to scroll down to find a PDF [1]. That said, the intro does start with VSCode and a plugin which provides language server support for COBOL (and PL/1!) and a CLI tool (Zowe [2]) for interaction with a Z/OS mainframe. This does seem like a pretty modern and up to date intro. Cool. I do think this could benefit from someone making a nice "modern language" landing page for it. I remember an April fools joke from 20 years ago promoting COBOL as the hot new web language, maybe it's finally time :) [0] https://github.com/openmainframeproject/cobol-programming-course https://github.com/openmainframeproject/cobol-programming-co... [1] https://github.com/openmainframeproject/cobol-programming-course/releases/download/2.3.0/COBOL-Programming-Course-1-Getting-Started.pdf https://github.com/openmainframeproject/cobol-programming-co... [2] https://docs.zowe.org/stable/web_help/index.html https://docs.zowe.org/stable/web_help/index.html
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > I remember an April fools joke from 20 years ago promoting COBOL as the hot new web language, maybe it's finally time Cobol on Wheelchair https://github.com/azac/cobol-on-wheelchair https://github.com/azac/cobol-on-wheelchair Cobol on Cogs http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM
  - Wuzado 5y ago
    Somewhat amusing piece of trivia: the author of Cobol on Wheelchair is currently a Polish MP.
pyuser583 5y ago
I interviewed as a COBOL programmmer. The place had given up hiring actual COBOL programmers, and instead hired pure computer science folks and Java programmers. That combo seemed to work fine.
- xigoi 5y ago
  Interesting. I'd expect Java programmers to be the least likely to be willing to learn a different language:
  - the_af 5y ago
    Why? Java is a starting point for many programmers, especially because there was a time were every "coding school" was a Java shop. But programmers naturally migrate from that to other waters: some to Scala or Kotlin, others shift gears and go to Python, others choose Golang. Java has a special affinity to COBOL, if only because Java is/was widespread in "enterprise" systems. A common joke was that Java was the successor of COBOL!
  - pyuser583 5y ago
    There was a local culture of assuming Java programmers could learn any language. Lots of positions would say “seeking Java programmers” but not involve actual Java. I think this was because there was a surplus of Java people.
  - rahen 5y ago
    Java and COBOL share some common principles. The languages aren't the point, the platform are. They both run on high performance / reliable virtual machines, allowing a superior scalability, reliability and long term compatibility to what could be achieved with more coupled approaches. Likewise, running COBOL tied to an x86 instance could be feasible but would be missing the point entirely. You could more or less consider a JEE application server as a software implementation of a mainframe. Java AS (Websphere, Weblogic, JBoss...) are essentially what killed the mainframe and midrange (IBM i / AS/400) in the enterprise. So yeah, Java/JEE, COBOL, RPG: different languages, same goals under the hood.
BasiliusCarver 5y ago
I had fun a few years ago learning a little bit of COBOL and wish this had been around then because you never know if any of the documentation is relevant to modern-ish COBOL. Feel free to repurpose this version of tic tac toe for learning https://github.com/ShaunLawrie/TicTacTOBOL https://github.com/ShaunLawrie/TicTacTOBOL
t_mann 5y ago
Does anyone have confirmation for the old rumour that there is high demand for COBOL engineers because of legacy systems eg in banks? And how does one go about finding these opportunities? I remember once talking to a freelance engineer, he didn't do COBOL but something similar in the sense that a lot of banks had legacy systems with that technology and that people had been saying since the 80's that it'd soon be extinct. He mentioned a (paid) database service which he used to source his clients, he was based in Germany, as were most of his clients. Anyone have an idea what that could be? I'd totally be down for learning an obscure language and deep-diving into sensitive systems that have been providing value for a long time already. But basic economic logic tells me that there won't be a free lunch there, I mean people pick up new programming languages all the time.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  Yes, it's true. My dad works for a large credit card processor that runs a ton of COBOL and they have a really hard time finding people. The big problem those guys are running into is that they aren't paying anywhere close to market rates for engineers working in more modern stacks. Senior developer pay tops out around $120k last I checked and they've been reliant on cheap offshore contractors for years now to insulate themselves from paying modern dev wages in the US. Funny thing though, the contracting firms are now notifying these companies that they won't be supplying COBOL developers into the future because there's a lot more money to be made contracting out devs in modern stacks than COBOL. It doesn't get a ton of attention because nobody can see the future, but hearing my dad talk about his company makes me slightly concerned about the future of our digital payments infrastructure.
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    Yeah its kinda scary. People meme it but so much of the modern world relies on an aging stock of retiree's to come in on contract and do a thing then leave to be sustainable. It's not the amount of stuff that runs COBOL thats a problem, it's how critical that infrastructure is to human society - I don't think that's an overstatement.
notsag-hn 5y ago
Don't do this to yourself in 2022
boboche 5y ago
Is there something equivalent for PowerHouse in the v7 era? Other than the pdf manuals which are more like man pages than learning ressources?
fredsmith219 5y ago
There should be a section devoted to JCL (Job Control Language). It is arcane and difficult but is the secret sauce that makes IBM COBOL so powerful on mainframes. I looked at the courses briefly and didn't see it mentioned.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Even back in the day, people who could write JCL from scratch were few. Most people took the JCL from a similar job and modified it. At least that was my experience.
- JohnL4 5y ago
  And VSAM?
- euroderf 5y ago
  Can you point to any JCL resources on the web ? Late 70s, IBM mainframe at college, running FORTRAN, PL/1, and PL/C. The guys that knew the secret sauce hung out in the keypunch room and once in a while applied their magic. SYSIN DD *, and all that.
stevenjgarner 5y ago
How about a COBOL:Python cross compiler?

103 points by marcodiego 5y ago

ultimape 5y ago

LEARNING COBOL IS VERY GOOD IF YOU WANNA INFILTRATE AND HACK LEGACY SYSTEMS.

the_af 5y ago
I think you meant: IDENTIFICATION SECTION. AUTHOR ULTIMAPE. PROGRAM DIVISION. CODE STARTS ANY MINUTE NOW. YEAH, REALLY. LEARN COBOL GIVING HACKING RESULTING IN INFILTRATION. CODE ENDS HERE. REALLY. THE END.

vmsp 5y ago

This project made the rounds a couple of years (months?) ago. Always accompanied by mentions of companies having a hard time hiring engineers to work on COBOL codebases. I've never had the luck of stumbling on one of these. Maybe because I'm not based in the US or just didn't look hard enough. It'd certainly be cool to take a peek at that code.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago
About 20+ years ago a friend of mine and I had just started a company in Denmark, and we got a call from a bank that wanted to know if we had any experts in 'protocol' design, and if we had anyone that knew COBOL. These were not our specialties but at least have had one contact.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Banks, insurance companies, in-house IT at large corps and govs is where you will still find COBOL. By the way if you are already a reasonably good programmer you can pick up COBOL in a few weeks. It's a very straightforward language. Getting familiar with how things are done on a mainframe will take longer.
  - joshocar 5y ago
    My friend is a manager at a big insurance company. They have a bunch of legacy stuff in COBOL.
  - the_af 5y ago
    Agreed on everything you say, except I still find it curious why these seasonal "let's learn COBOL" posts find a place here on HN. I mean, yes, there's a challenge in navigating boring legacy COBOL banking systems, which follow no conventions, were created before code versioning was a thing, or best practices for that matter. Yes, it's challenging and therefore of interest to hackers, but still... ... striking my fingers with a hammer is similarly interesting and challenging, but why would I want to do it?
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      I would not be so sure on the "follow no conventions, created before code versioning was a thing" COBOL shops in my (admittedly limited experience in the early 1990s) had conventions, standard skeleton code for various things (referred to as copybooks) and source code control of a sort (very centralized of course, since everything was centralized). They definitely had separated "regions" for dev, test, and production where I worked, and a process for moving code changes to production. In my experience (as a staff consultant with a major firm), if they had consultants building systems, they certainly had a defined methodology, as consulting firms love that. I'll grant that there may have been a wide range of variance on this sort of thing. Just as there is today in many shops. I'm also not trying to sell anyone on the idea. Going back to COBOL would be about the last thing I'd want to do personally, even if there were good money in it.
      - the_af 5y ago
        Interesting. That wasn't my experience working at a bank, or my dad's, but it was the same bank ;)
the_af 5y ago
Nah, your intuition is right: there are not that many jobs for COBOL (not outside boring legacy maintenance jobs for banking systems). Unlike what recurring posts on HN would have you believe, it's also not the way to a high paying job, either.
christophilus 5y ago
I worked with a guy who had the systems manual for a US nuclear missile facility. (I have no idea how he got his hands on it.) It had a bunch of COBOL in it.

owyn 5y ago

It's Sunday, my dad was a COBOL programmer, sure I'll spend 15 minutes checking it out. The main site link on GitHub is a 404 though [0]. The "getting started" link in the README points to a release notes page and do you have to scroll down to find a PDF [1]. That said, the intro does start with VSCode and a plugin which provides language server support for COBOL (and PL/1!) and a CLI tool (Zowe [2]) for interaction with a Z/OS mainframe. This does seem like a pretty modern and up to date intro. Cool. I do think this could benefit from someone making a nice "modern language" landing page for it. I remember an April fools joke from 20 years ago promoting COBOL as the hot new web language, maybe it's finally time :) [0] https://github.com/openmainframeproject/cobol-programming-course https://github.com/openmainframeproject/cobol-programming-co... [1] https://github.com/openmainframeproject/cobol-programming-course/releases/download/2.3.0/COBOL-Programming-Course-1-Getting-Started.pdf https://github.com/openmainframeproject/cobol-programming-co... [2] https://docs.zowe.org/stable/web_help/index.html https://docs.zowe.org/stable/web_help/index.html

dmitriid 5y ago
> I remember an April fools joke from 20 years ago promoting COBOL as the hot new web language, maybe it's finally time Cobol on Wheelchair https://github.com/azac/cobol-on-wheelchair https://github.com/azac/cobol-on-wheelchair Cobol on Cogs http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM
- Wuzado 5y ago
  Somewhat amusing piece of trivia: the author of Cobol on Wheelchair is currently a Polish MP.

pyuser583 5y ago

I interviewed as a COBOL programmmer. The place had given up hiring actual COBOL programmers, and instead hired pure computer science folks and Java programmers. That combo seemed to work fine.

xigoi 5y ago
Interesting. I'd expect Java programmers to be the least likely to be willing to learn a different language:
- the_af 5y ago
  Why? Java is a starting point for many programmers, especially because there was a time were every "coding school" was a Java shop. But programmers naturally migrate from that to other waters: some to Scala or Kotlin, others shift gears and go to Python, others choose Golang. Java has a special affinity to COBOL, if only because Java is/was widespread in "enterprise" systems. A common joke was that Java was the successor of COBOL!
- pyuser583 5y ago
  There was a local culture of assuming Java programmers could learn any language. Lots of positions would say “seeking Java programmers” but not involve actual Java. I think this was because there was a surplus of Java people.
- rahen 5y ago
  Java and COBOL share some common principles. The languages aren't the point, the platform are. They both run on high performance / reliable virtual machines, allowing a superior scalability, reliability and long term compatibility to what could be achieved with more coupled approaches. Likewise, running COBOL tied to an x86 instance could be feasible but would be missing the point entirely. You could more or less consider a JEE application server as a software implementation of a mainframe. Java AS (Websphere, Weblogic, JBoss...) are essentially what killed the mainframe and midrange (IBM i / AS/400) in the enterprise. So yeah, Java/JEE, COBOL, RPG: different languages, same goals under the hood.

BasiliusCarver 5y ago

I had fun a few years ago learning a little bit of COBOL and wish this had been around then because you never know if any of the documentation is relevant to modern-ish COBOL. Feel free to repurpose this version of tic tac toe for learning https://github.com/ShaunLawrie/TicTacTOBOL https://github.com/ShaunLawrie/TicTacTOBOL

t_mann 5y ago

Does anyone have confirmation for the old rumour that there is high demand for COBOL engineers because of legacy systems eg in banks? And how does one go about finding these opportunities? I remember once talking to a freelance engineer, he didn't do COBOL but something similar in the sense that a lot of banks had legacy systems with that technology and that people had been saying since the 80's that it'd soon be extinct. He mentioned a (paid) database service which he used to source his clients, he was based in Germany, as were most of his clients. Anyone have an idea what that could be? I'd totally be down for learning an obscure language and deep-diving into sensitive systems that have been providing value for a long time already. But basic economic logic tells me that there won't be a free lunch there, I mean people pick up new programming languages all the time.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago
Yes, it's true. My dad works for a large credit card processor that runs a ton of COBOL and they have a really hard time finding people. The big problem those guys are running into is that they aren't paying anywhere close to market rates for engineers working in more modern stacks. Senior developer pay tops out around $120k last I checked and they've been reliant on cheap offshore contractors for years now to insulate themselves from paying modern dev wages in the US. Funny thing though, the contracting firms are now notifying these companies that they won't be supplying COBOL developers into the future because there's a lot more money to be made contracting out devs in modern stacks than COBOL. It doesn't get a ton of attention because nobody can see the future, but hearing my dad talk about his company makes me slightly concerned about the future of our digital payments infrastructure.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  Yeah its kinda scary. People meme it but so much of the modern world relies on an aging stock of retiree's to come in on contract and do a thing then leave to be sustainable. It's not the amount of stuff that runs COBOL thats a problem, it's how critical that infrastructure is to human society - I don't think that's an overstatement.

notsag-hn 5y ago

Don't do this to yourself in 2022

boboche 5y ago

Is there something equivalent for PowerHouse in the v7 era? Other than the pdf manuals which are more like man pages than learning ressources?

fredsmith219 5y ago

There should be a section devoted to JCL (Job Control Language). It is arcane and difficult but is the secret sauce that makes IBM COBOL so powerful on mainframes. I looked at the courses briefly and didn't see it mentioned.

throwawayboise 5y ago
Even back in the day, people who could write JCL from scratch were few. Most people took the JCL from a similar job and modified it. At least that was my experience.
JohnL4 5y ago
And VSAM?
euroderf 5y ago
Can you point to any JCL resources on the web ? Late 70s, IBM mainframe at college, running FORTRAN, PL/1, and PL/C. The guys that knew the secret sauce hung out in the keypunch room and once in a while applied their magic. SYSIN DD *, and all that.

stevenjgarner 5y ago

How about a COBOL:Python cross compiler?