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> C++20 is coming into a world with much more competition I question whether those are actually competing in this same realm, for large organizations. Language

> C++20 is coming into a world with much more competition I question whether those are actually competing in this same realm, for large organizations. Language adopotion is not just about the language, but also tooling, libraries, standard, etc which organizations have built up and rely on. For example, at Apple C++ is used more internally than is exposed in public APIS. (I can't imagine the swift compilers performance scaling up to large code bases at this point.) Can you speculate on other reasons, besides competition for the slower rate of adoption? Is it not as helpful as previous standards? Is it more difficult to implement?

worik 4y ago
> (I can't imagine the swift compilers performance scaling up to large code bases at this point.) It struggles on medium sized code bases. And Xcode becomes flaky too, on medium code bases. Works absolutely brilliantly on the small examples that are used to market it. I have been using it for two years, and fundamental bugs in the system have not been fixed in that time. (The code inspection tools in the debugger are close to useless) The last time I updated it my computer spent over three hours with the installer running at 100%. What on Earth was it doing? Mining bitcoin? A whole lot of things are clearly going very wrong behind the scenes
- sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
  I have had the same experience. This is one factor that leads me to believe Apple is mostly using C++ internally.
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    Nah, C++ is mostly frowned upon inside Apple. The open source projects (clang and Darwin) contain most of the C++ in the OS. Objective-C is the ubiquitous implementation language in Apple's macOS/iOS/tvOS/watchOS userspace code. It will eventually be superseded by Swift as the Swift runtime improves. All userspace projects and some kernel projects are built in Xcode, and most developers internally use Xcode to edit the sources.
    - sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
      The particular frameworks I use which often have a lot of C++ stack traces must be outliers. I appreciate the info.

worik 4y ago

> (I can't imagine the swift compilers performance scaling up to large code bases at this point.) It struggles on medium sized code bases. And Xcode becomes flaky too, on medium code bases. Works absolutely brilliantly on the small examples that are used to market it. I have been using it for two years, and fundamental bugs in the system have not been fixed in that time. (The code inspection tools in the debugger are close to useless) The last time I updated it my computer spent over three hours with the installer running at 100%. What on Earth was it doing? Mining bitcoin? A whole lot of things are clearly going very wrong behind the scenes

sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
I have had the same experience. This is one factor that leads me to believe Apple is mostly using C++ internally.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  Nah, C++ is mostly frowned upon inside Apple. The open source projects (clang and Darwin) contain most of the C++ in the OS. Objective-C is the ubiquitous implementation language in Apple's macOS/iOS/tvOS/watchOS userspace code. It will eventually be superseded by Swift as the Swift runtime improves. All userspace projects and some kernel projects are built in Xcode, and most developers internally use Xcode to edit the sources.
  - sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
    The particular frameworks I use which often have a lot of C++ stack traces must be outliers. I appreciate the info.