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My python is rusty but IIRC it allows functional stuff (except for expression-only lambdas, boo). From https://docs.python.org/3/howto/functional.html https://

My python is rusty but IIRC it allows functional stuff (except for expression-only lambdas, boo). From https://docs.python.org/3/howto/functional.html https://docs.python.org/3/howto/functional.html it's got map/filter/currying and plenty more, what's misting in your view?

mjburgess 4y ago
pattern matching expressions, syntax for partial application and composition, a typing system which can express structural types, a generalised list comprehension
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  > pattern matching expressions, nothing intrinsically 'functional' about this, though it's nice > syntax for partial application <https://docs.python.org/3/library/functools.html#functools.partial https://docs.python.org/3/library/functools.html#functools.p...> > and composition, Hmm, to my surprise I can't find this but TBH it's trivial to write, here's an eg <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16739290/composing-functions-in-python https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16739290/composing-funct...> > a typing system which can express structural types, typing is orthogonal to FP (though very nice to have) > a generalised list comprehension IDK what this means, what's ungeneral about comprehensions currently?
  - mjburgess 4y ago
    expressing generic data transformations naturally in syntax, requires: being able to wrap/unwrap data types (ie., pattern matching), composing operations, partially applying them, and providing syntax to support filter/map/flatMap on arbitrary data structures Pythons failure to provide this, indeed, outright hostility to doing so is half the reason pandas is a mess of incomprehensible syntax By prioritising assignment expressions and implementing pattern "matching" as a statement, they're clearly showing a lot of hostility to one of the major use cases of their language (incidentally, recall that C# introduced LINQ in 2008, a generalised comprehension! That's C#.) There isnt the syntax to reimplement to support natural phrasings of data transformation, in lieu of this, pandas exploits weird operators such as `.loc[a,b]`. At some point the dam is going to have to break, and python is going to have to introduce something to resolve this mess. However, i'd bet it'll be a decade of tooth-and-nail fighting about it. It isnt a software engineering language for education any more, and i'm not seeing this reality being acknowledged
- biellls 4y ago
  Pattern matching is supported in 3.10 and can match classes structurally, as well as other types (edit: I see that you mean you don't like that it's a statement, which I agree with). The typing system supports structural types with Protocol. Personally what I miss most are multi-line lambdas.
  - mjburgess 4y ago
    I'm not asking for "support" i'm asking for syntax. The question is why the syntax of data processing in python is illegible, not "are things technically possible in python". Commenters here are keen to say "but dont you know!" -- and, yes, I do.
    - zasdffaa 4y ago
      To be fair the confusion of FP vs FP syntax is from your comment: "Perhaps if python would add more support for FP (rather than its present hostility)" Python does FP fine and FP via an ugly library or via elegant inbuilt syntax is still FP. I get you want nicer syntax but it wasn't clear. I dunno, write a PEP and see if it gets support. I hope you succeed!
- ok_dad 4y ago
  > pattern matching expressions Available in 3.10: https://peps.python.org/pep-0636/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0636/ > syntax for partial application... from functools import partial somefunc_arg1_arg2 = partial(somefunc, arg1, arg2) > ...and composition A native compositional syntax would be nice. > a typing system which can express structural types # mypy will typecheck this code and see `MyString()` has a `.read()` method, so it's a `Readable` even though it doesn't sub-class `Readable` from typing import Any, Protocol class Readable(Protocol): def read(self) -> Any: ... def read_something(something: Readable) -> Any: return something.read() class MyString: a_string: str = "something" def read(self) -> str: return self.a_string read_something(MyString()) > a generalised list comprehension I agree this would be nice.
  - mjburgess 4y ago
    they arent expressions, defeating the whole point that isnt syntax for partial appication, and the protocol system for structrural typing is syntactically and practically absurd the question is "why do data processing libs in python look syntactically illegible" and the answer is largely, as youve posted above, that python doesnt support useful syntax

mjburgess 4y ago

pattern matching expressions, syntax for partial application and composition, a typing system which can express structural types, a generalised list comprehension

zasdffaa 4y ago
> pattern matching expressions, nothing intrinsically 'functional' about this, though it's nice > syntax for partial application <https://docs.python.org/3/library/functools.html#functools.partial https://docs.python.org/3/library/functools.html#functools.p...> > and composition, Hmm, to my surprise I can't find this but TBH it's trivial to write, here's an eg <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16739290/composing-functions-in-python https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16739290/composing-funct...> > a typing system which can express structural types, typing is orthogonal to FP (though very nice to have) > a generalised list comprehension IDK what this means, what's ungeneral about comprehensions currently?
- mjburgess 4y ago
  expressing generic data transformations naturally in syntax, requires: being able to wrap/unwrap data types (ie., pattern matching), composing operations, partially applying them, and providing syntax to support filter/map/flatMap on arbitrary data structures Pythons failure to provide this, indeed, outright hostility to doing so is half the reason pandas is a mess of incomprehensible syntax By prioritising assignment expressions and implementing pattern "matching" as a statement, they're clearly showing a lot of hostility to one of the major use cases of their language (incidentally, recall that C# introduced LINQ in 2008, a generalised comprehension! That's C#.) There isnt the syntax to reimplement to support natural phrasings of data transformation, in lieu of this, pandas exploits weird operators such as `.loc[a,b]`. At some point the dam is going to have to break, and python is going to have to introduce something to resolve this mess. However, i'd bet it'll be a decade of tooth-and-nail fighting about it. It isnt a software engineering language for education any more, and i'm not seeing this reality being acknowledged
biellls 4y ago
Pattern matching is supported in 3.10 and can match classes structurally, as well as other types (edit: I see that you mean you don't like that it's a statement, which I agree with). The typing system supports structural types with Protocol. Personally what I miss most are multi-line lambdas.
- mjburgess 4y ago
  I'm not asking for "support" i'm asking for syntax. The question is why the syntax of data processing in python is illegible, not "are things technically possible in python". Commenters here are keen to say "but dont you know!" -- and, yes, I do.
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    To be fair the confusion of FP vs FP syntax is from your comment: "Perhaps if python would add more support for FP (rather than its present hostility)" Python does FP fine and FP via an ugly library or via elegant inbuilt syntax is still FP. I get you want nicer syntax but it wasn't clear. I dunno, write a PEP and see if it gets support. I hope you succeed!
ok_dad 4y ago
> pattern matching expressions Available in 3.10: https://peps.python.org/pep-0636/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0636/ > syntax for partial application... from functools import partial somefunc_arg1_arg2 = partial(somefunc, arg1, arg2) > ...and composition A native compositional syntax would be nice. > a typing system which can express structural types # mypy will typecheck this code and see `MyString()` has a `.read()` method, so it's a `Readable` even though it doesn't sub-class `Readable` from typing import Any, Protocol class Readable(Protocol): def read(self) -> Any: ... def read_something(something: Readable) -> Any: return something.read() class MyString: a_string: str = "something" def read(self) -> str: return self.a_string read_something(MyString()) > a generalised list comprehension I agree this would be nice.
- mjburgess 4y ago
  they arent expressions, defeating the whole point that isnt syntax for partial appication, and the protocol system for structrural typing is syntactically and practically absurd the question is "why do data processing libs in python look syntactically illegible" and the answer is largely, as youve posted above, that python doesnt support useful syntax