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Hey Akash, I like the idea of giving people some help expressing themselves at work. You might be interested to learn about the Power Distance Index, and the b

Hey Akash, I like the idea of giving people some help expressing themselves at work. You might be interested to learn about the Power Distance Index, and the body of work on PDI and work culture. You’ll see if you read the comments here that some people are like “the alternatives are bullshit corporate speak and infuriate me”, and some are like “yes, at last, a way to help people be more polite / better communicators”. There’s a smattering of “this is passive aggressive” thrown in. One of the broad pitches PDI at work types make is that the lower the PDI, the more direct communications are preferred; the higher, the more ‘diplomatic’ the communications are preferred. My vibe on your list is that it’s just a tad more diplomatic than Silicon Valley wants to be, hence the slight negative ‘passive aggressive’ reactions. Some of the lowest PDI countries in the world are Israel, and many Northern European countries, and it fits my experience that in those places additional respect is given for bluntness - as Jan Maas in Ted Lasso says “I’m not rude, I’m Dutch.” As a broad stereotype using the alternate wordings you give would be a sign you are not someone to be respected in that environment. On the other hand, Saudi Arabia’s PDI is high, and I would bet that some of your alternate list there would still be much too rude; just a guess, I haven’t worked in Saudi. Anyway, thanks again for this; if you stay interested, you might consider reworking this into different ‘cultural norms’ lists to help people acclimate / go both ways; at that point, I think it would be a very broadly useful resource.

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ghostfoxgod 5y ago
Thank you for sharing your insights and information about PDI (will be looking more in depth about this), and I agree with what you mentioned how based on demographics and the relationship between the two person can totally change how you communicate with them. The basic intent of the project was to curate a list of things what you might feel like saying vs how you can say it (more professionally I guess) Would be happy to see how the data can be improved which can be better suited for majority of people.
- exikyut 5y ago
  Idea: alter the repo to add a diplomacy dimension with a few notches in it, and invite contributions of alternate wordings appropriate for different scenarios. (The focus being on creating an obvious void in the hope people fill it with insight) From there, I was originally imagining the site could use a slider to cycle back and forth through wordings, but the associative and comparative value of just displaying them all simultaneously in columns under each heading is probably worth the tight information density. Maybe also alter the site (now, while trending!) to indicate you're looking for additional data (for both the situation and diplomacy-level dimensions) - the GitHub link at the bottom is a tiny bit... I have to go looking for it myself, which is very good, but you might be able to passively collect that bit more low hanging fruit by making it more of a (polite :D) call to action.
  - ghostfoxgod 5y ago
    Thank you for the suggestion, definitely makes sense to me.
    - exikyut 5y ago
      Oooh, I don't think the page looked quite like that before. Looks great!
      - ghostfoxgod 5y ago
        Made the CTA changes based on your suggestions, would be looking into the other ones as well in the morning :)
- nautilius 5y ago
  Yes, but as vassanas points out, you are not achieving this - because it is different from culture to culture! If you add the specific culture / region you are targeting this at, it could already mitigate that issue. As vassanas points out, the phrases you suggest would work to your disadvantage in more confrontational cultures, because you will be perceived as bullshitting and beating around the bush, but not as a serious contributer one should listen to.
silvestrov 5y ago
> I’m not rude One word Danes (and other N.Es) often get in trouble for is 'fuck'. In Denmark it is no problem to use this in many business meetings but will often spell trouble when we participate in a meeting with people from USA. We simply do not see using it as something to avoid. (and pupils in Denmark will absolutely not be sent to headmaster or parents contacted if they use it. At most it will be a glance from the teacher if they use it too much).
- mavelikara 5y ago
  > One word Danes (and other N.Es) often get in trouble for is 'fuck'. In Denmark it is no problem to use this in many business meetings but will often spell trouble when we participate in a meeting with people from USA. We simply do not see using it as something to avoid. Reminds me of a slide[1] DHH did at a Rails conference presentation. [1]: https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/dhh-says-f-you/57797 https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/dhh-says-f-you/57797
- Trasmatta 5y ago
  I would say this is generally true, except in SV start up culture. "Fuck" is used so ubiquitously there that it's almost seen as weird if you don't use it frequently.
  - nautilius 5y ago
    Obviously not generally true, as silvestrov discusses in the very post you reply to.
- bloak 5y ago
  It's unclear whether you're talking about the English word "fuck" or some Danish "equivalent". Either way, the word doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to people who speak different languages, or even just different dialects, do it's unclear to what extent the difference you're referring to is cultural or linguistic. (Is there even a clear distinction between "cultural" and "linguistic"?)
  - 5y ago
avivo 5y ago
I would love to see a language model (e.g. GPT-3) prompt for translating emails/slack/responses across this language barrier.
flint 5y ago
YES! A revers lookup into the Dutch would be great!
civilized 5y ago
I definitely have my bread buttered on the low PDI side, but this is a fascinating concept and I'm sure will help me manage cultural differences productively. I'm now furiously Googling this and apparently it's part of a broader framework called cultural dimensions theory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensions_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimens...
throwaway7865 5y ago
I’m currently interviewing for jobs in Israel and their “straight talk” habit is honestly number one problem for me. People never schedule meetings, they just ask for your phone number and call whether it’s appropriate for them. They interrupt you in the meetings, tell your solution is bad. It may sound refreshing on paper, but honestly you feel treated like a low-skilled worker in a laundry or a kitchen. I’m not a Westerner, but I do come from a background of working with an English company and the difference in respect to boundaries and time is night and day.
- josh_fyi 5y ago
  I've worked in hi tech in Israel for 20 years and now have a completely international clientele that I work with, and I don't think Israelis in general are like that.
  - throwaway7865 5y ago
    My general impression is that “corporate” structures may have some veneer of a professional workplace culture in Israel, but with startups all bets are off. I felt like being at a bazaar where a stranger talks to you like a person they know all their life. Which probably sounds appealing for people tired of Western sugarcoating and is probably great at a party when drinks flow freely. But at workspace it just feels unprofessional and disrespectful. Local friends explained to me that this is cultural. Workplace in Israel is catered to locals and they rarely hire outsiders or expats. People have very short distance, they serve in army together, go to parties together, hide from bombings together. So hierarchy and workspace mannerisms make little sense in that context.
- bradknowles 5y ago
  Radical honesty is something that I would appreciate and find quite refreshing. Offensiveness just for the sake of being offensive and trying to make other people feel powerless around you, that kind of thing I would not appreciate. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between these two. Now, scheduling, I'm not quite as bad as the Germans, but I do require that stuff get put on the calendar, and you make a really strong effort to hold to that schedule. If you think you can just call me whenever you want, then you can just fuck off. Not even my wife can just call me whenever she wants. Fortunately, she knows this.
crispyambulance 5y ago
I've not heard of the "PDI" concept before this, but I believe the same thing can be achieved by simply adapting to your audience. The problem is actually knowing your audience (as individuals) well enough to assess how they will interpret your words. Can you assume that all Saudi's, for instance, will react well to the somewhat cloying language suggested by the OP's post? I think not. But if you don't personally know the audience it's also tricky to know what each culture's acceptably polite "default" is. I've gotten myself into some etiquette faux-pas in the past by using sarcasm and irreverent humor around Chinese colleagues. My previous experience with Chinese folks had been limited to grad school and I had just (wrongly) assumed that such communication was OK as the default.
- deleted 5y ago
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- seventhtiger 5y ago
  As a Saudi I supposed I can comment on this. The minimum of polite language is higher. Profanity can get you in trouble like getting a written warning, and graphic profanity can land you in handcuffs, like insulting someone's mother. Saying son of a bitch is a misdemeanor. My experience in big corps is that the PDI is high but the power isn't so concerned with neutral formal phrasing. Phrasing in Saudi culture can be shockingly informal even at the highest level, since open tribal gatherings were the highest authority in the land until recently. The King and Princes still run open tribal gatherings where citizens can speak informally. Corporate speak is new and still seen as intrusive to how we do business. How PDI would express itself would be preserving face, I guess. You can't contradict superiors or even coworkers too openly and directly, you can't openly disrespect or be irreverent. All possibly disruptive feedback must be private or you're bringing shame to yourself and others. Startups are not like that at all. They're young, irreverent, and passionate. The young people really express themselves in those spaces with barely any hint of the old school social expectations. Guys and gals taking smoke breaks together and focusing on getting the job done.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    I'm really curious how this interacts with display rules, or the emotions we're allowed to show/communicate in different contexts. When you talk of preserving face: > You can't contradict superiors or even coworkers too openly and directly, you can't openly disrespect or be irreverent. All possibly disruptive feedback must be private or you're bringing shame to yourself and others. Are you saying that you're not allowed to express anger to superiors or coworkers in public? Is it the way it's said, the emotion behind it, or something else that seems to matter the most?
michaelbrave 5y ago
People that aren't in power not being able to communicate equally with those in power is why we have 1.Gossip[1] 2.Sarcasm[2][3] and 3.Passive Agressiveness[4]. Sometimes it even manifests as quiet protest and doing small destructive things like not meeting deadlines or other small acts of sabotage[4]. This is rarely understood by those in power though, they would see it only as disrespect rather than the only way to regain some small amount of power. It's also worth thinking about not just broad strokes societal culture at a national level, but also family culture, like the metafilter post[5] about guess vs ask cultures explains, some feel comfortable asking for anything leaving the responder to say no (putting the load from the requester to the requested) while others guess and try to predict and will only ask when they know it will likely be a positive response (putting the load on the requester instead of the requested). Ask culture is probably more healthy, but despite that the real problems are when the two clash. [1] Gossip as Revenge of the Powerless - https://aeon.co/ideas/gossip-was-a-powerful-tool-for-the-powerless-in-ancient-greece https://aeon.co/ideas/gossip-was-a-powerful-tool-for-the-pow... [2] Humor as a Serious Strategy of Nonviolent Resistance to Oppression - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1468-0130.2008.00488.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1468-0130... [3] Follower sarcasm reduces leader overpay by increasing accountability - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002210312100069X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002210312... [4] Powerlessness Corrupts - leads to sabotage - https://hbr.org/2010/07/column-powerlessness-corrupts https://hbr.org/2010/07/column-powerlessness-corrupts [5] Ask & Guess Culture - https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet...
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I appreciate so much in this post. I also had never heard of the Ask/Guess culture description. I wonder if there could be another component, a Tell culture. I don't ask you, I don't guess, I just tell you how it is or what you'll do. I think that's another way we communicate and often is even more so a way to avoid the possibility of being rejected. If I ask, you can say no. If I guess, then I can maybe figure out if you say no before you actually do so you don't have to. If I tell you, then there's not much way for you to say no, or if you do, then it is a clear violation of the agreement. I think this happens with some people who are in military culture or other top-down hierarchies where there seems to be a "Tell culture" (I don't like labeling cultures too much with such identity descriptors because I think it can lock them into existence). And I think that can be one of the hardest things for people trying to reintegrate as veterans, to go from telling people what to do and being told what to do to telling your 5-year-old what to do and they say no...and then having to learn to guess or even ask...or more deep down, opening up first and then asking, maybe the most emotionally raw version.
temp8964 5y ago
The context is important. There is cultural difference among countries and fields. There is also the difference from types of communication, i.e. face-to-face or email or slack. There is also the difference from the audience, i.e. who are you talking to, coworkers or clients. There is even individual differences, i.e. different people will perceive differently, simply because their personalities.
avip 5y ago
As an Israeli, I'm fully accustomed and conditioned to tell others their solution is idiotic and their ideas are dumb. But having worked abroad, I've come to depreciate this "quality" more as just bad taste and lack of manners, and less as "straight talking". It really adds little to the conversation. It's just an IDF inheritance that should be eradicated.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I remember asking an American vet what the communication style was within the US military and he said, "Someone who outranks you tells you what to do and there's always someone who outranks you." How you would describe the communication style within the IDF?
  - baruch 5y ago
    It depends on your commander, you can buff your commander and tell him he is suggesting something stupid, though if he pushes it you have no real option but to do it. Though if the specific commander was all too happy to assert his rank you knew not to bother. I guess it also depends on what unit you are in, there is likely a very big difference between fighting units (infantry, armor, artillery) with which I'm more familiar and the back-office units.
- riazrizvi 5y ago
  I think PDI negatively correlates strongly with social safety. In the IDF you are unlikely to be punished for speaking up, and in general that's true in Dutch and Israeli culture for locals talking to one another. Frankness is not punished. In more hierarchical societies where you can be put in jail for pissing off the wrong cousin, frankness can be severely punished, and stories are abound of such. So when the social consequences shift for an individual who is moved to a new setting, then the PDI for that individual will shift hard. Hence you find this working abroad and you've adapted your communication style. But we can do thought experiments on the PDI for the following situations: - Arab talking to Israeli, inside Israel vs inside home country - Israeli outside Israel talking to Jewish vs non-Jewish person - Consumer Salesperson (small commission product, very frequent close opportunities) vs Enterprise Salesperson (large commission product, lots of confirmation pre-close meetings across org, leading to the final sale) I think in each case the PDI will correlate with the negative consequences for the speaker speaking out of turn, once they become habituated to the situation of course.
kingcharles 5y ago
Living in the UK I used to find all the French acted very rude. Then I spent enough time in France to realize the French don't find each other rude, it's just the way they communicate. Once you understand the culture it all makes sense, they're not trying to be dicks.
js2 5y ago
Your comment on different communication styles between cultures reminds me of a (famous?) metafilter comment, the difference between Ask Culture and Guess Culture: http://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 http://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-betw...
- darkerside 5y ago
  That is a hilarious thread. My take is that the initial request is quite rude, not for asking, but for including a veiled threat that they won't be able to see each other if it doesn't work out. This is classic manipulation, and I hope the couple said no!
  - aynsof 5y ago
    I reread the letter, but I'm still not seeing the veiled threat here. Would you be able to spell out where/what it is?
    - js2 5y ago
      "I hope this works out /so/ we can see each other!" Implies that they won't be able to see each other unless the host allows the guest to stay with them. Of course, this only works as a threat if the guest assumes the host wants their company in the first place. I don't find it to be a threat because the guest would only be withholding something the host doesn't want in the first place. That said, changing one word makes a big difference: "I hope this works out /and/ we can see each other!" This way seeing each other is disconnected from the hosting. FWIW I don't find the request rude in the first place. The asker doesn't know she's making the request of someone who doesn't like her. Jeff seems offended that the woman mentioned his name ("I don't even know this woman.") But to me, that's just being polite as opposed to leaving him out entirely or referring to him generally (i.e. "you and your husband").
      - aynsof 5y ago
        Thanks for explaining. I'm a native English speaker who grew up in a (fairly?) strongly guess culture, and I'm still really surprised that anyone would find this rude or threatening. It's interesting to see the very different interpretations.
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I currently work for a federal public sector client. The substitutes are all I hear day in and day out. We can talk about what oughta be all day long; and that's a fun and important conversation of its own; but should not be confused with what is -- at my current client/project, you definitely need to learn the language if you want to be successful. And not in a "BS-y management successful", I mean get anything done including architecture and development. C'est la vie! (FWIW, after decades of complaining and moaning, I decided to approach people / projects / relationships with at least a fraction of analytical mindset and effort that I take to technical problems. It's been both rewarding and effective and fascinating, and dear gawd I wish I paid attention to it earlier rather than spending all that time moaning and complaining. Again, we can have a discussion about how ideal world should be, and we can work toward changing it, but it absolutely has to start with actually understanding it. I'll take a look at the PDI, anything that helps understand the mechanics of work relationships is beneficial - thx! :)
vmception 5y ago
> Some of the lowest PDI countries in the world are Israel, and many Northern European countries because its the same people right? like its just a branch from the same culture due to very recent immigration trends
- mastax 5y ago
  No[1]. Unless a surprising proportion of the Jews from the "Former USSR" are from the Baltics, there are far more Israeli Jews from e.g. Morocco than from Northern Europe. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_and_religious_groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_... Chart only includes Jews, unfortunately, but that is 75% of the population.
  - vmception 5y ago
    thanks! very useful chart
RugnirViking 5y ago
I did have a read about that, the PDI makes a lot of sense to me and is pretty interesting if a little pseudoscientific (nowhere can quite seem to pin down how the numbered ratings are calculated but it seems arbritrary) - this being said its not clear if a thing such as cultural difference can have numbers put to it easily if at all, and I'd largely agree with the ratings of countries I have experience with. But man that got me into looking at some of the other measures used alongside that, and the "Long Term Orientation" might be some of the most inane, incoherent garbage I have ever heard. I'd say it's asian exceptionalism but it's not even that - it just doesn't make sense. Every explanation of it seems different, and most explanations aren't internally consistent, literally including examples of the same thing at opposite ends as though it were different. As far as I can tell the original concept seems to have started out with "lets make a rating that puts china at the top/I heard of yin and yang once" and gone from there, but even then as described it usually is stupid, putting things like "belief in tradition" and "desire for stability" as things in the SHORT term column and "adaptability" in the long term column like lol what
andrei_says_ 5y ago
What are some good resources for learning more about the PDI, its meaning and how it's measured? Also, how does one apply this information? Lastly, what about international teams? I have colleagues from different parts of the world - how would this apply in a meeting where some are USAnians, some Canadians, some German and some Eastern a European. Lastly, the US is huge. SoCal is probably different from Missouri from Cambridge, MA. Would love to hear your take on this.
raxxorraxor 5y ago
Direct language also suggest commitment, so clearly you dial that back in higher positions where every word is put on a scale. It still remains bullshit corporate speak as the language isn't just more polite, it tries to stay non-binding, basically a refusal at communication. It doesn't say anything about hostility either. A support worker will still smile while having unsavory thoughts about the customer. Hence many people think of it as a dishonest form of communication which it basically is. If you represent a company in public, you have no real choice not to use it. Rules of amoral businesses.

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ghostfoxgod 5y ago

Thank you for sharing your insights and information about PDI (will be looking more in depth about this), and I agree with what you mentioned how based on demographics and the relationship between the two person can totally change how you communicate with them. The basic intent of the project was to curate a list of things what you might feel like saying vs how you can say it (more professionally I guess) Would be happy to see how the data can be improved which can be better suited for majority of people.

exikyut 5y ago
Idea: alter the repo to add a diplomacy dimension with a few notches in it, and invite contributions of alternate wordings appropriate for different scenarios. (The focus being on creating an obvious void in the hope people fill it with insight) From there, I was originally imagining the site could use a slider to cycle back and forth through wordings, but the associative and comparative value of just displaying them all simultaneously in columns under each heading is probably worth the tight information density. Maybe also alter the site (now, while trending!) to indicate you're looking for additional data (for both the situation and diplomacy-level dimensions) - the GitHub link at the bottom is a tiny bit... I have to go looking for it myself, which is very good, but you might be able to passively collect that bit more low hanging fruit by making it more of a (polite :D) call to action.
- ghostfoxgod 5y ago
  Thank you for the suggestion, definitely makes sense to me.
  - exikyut 5y ago
    Oooh, I don't think the page looked quite like that before. Looks great!
    - ghostfoxgod 5y ago
      Made the CTA changes based on your suggestions, would be looking into the other ones as well in the morning :)
nautilius 5y ago
Yes, but as vassanas points out, you are not achieving this - because it is different from culture to culture! If you add the specific culture / region you are targeting this at, it could already mitigate that issue. As vassanas points out, the phrases you suggest would work to your disadvantage in more confrontational cultures, because you will be perceived as bullshitting and beating around the bush, but not as a serious contributer one should listen to.

silvestrov 5y ago

> I’m not rude One word Danes (and other N.Es) often get in trouble for is 'fuck'. In Denmark it is no problem to use this in many business meetings but will often spell trouble when we participate in a meeting with people from USA. We simply do not see using it as something to avoid. (and pupils in Denmark will absolutely not be sent to headmaster or parents contacted if they use it. At most it will be a glance from the teacher if they use it too much).

mavelikara 5y ago
> One word Danes (and other N.Es) often get in trouble for is 'fuck'. In Denmark it is no problem to use this in many business meetings but will often spell trouble when we participate in a meeting with people from USA. We simply do not see using it as something to avoid. Reminds me of a slide[1] DHH did at a Rails conference presentation. [1]: https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/dhh-says-f-you/57797 https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/dhh-says-f-you/57797
Trasmatta 5y ago
I would say this is generally true, except in SV start up culture. "Fuck" is used so ubiquitously there that it's almost seen as weird if you don't use it frequently.
- nautilius 5y ago
  Obviously not generally true, as silvestrov discusses in the very post you reply to.
bloak 5y ago
It's unclear whether you're talking about the English word "fuck" or some Danish "equivalent". Either way, the word doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to people who speak different languages, or even just different dialects, do it's unclear to what extent the difference you're referring to is cultural or linguistic. (Is there even a clear distinction between "cultural" and "linguistic"?)
- 5y ago

avivo 5y ago

I would love to see a language model (e.g. GPT-3) prompt for translating emails/slack/responses across this language barrier.

flint 5y ago

YES! A revers lookup into the Dutch would be great!

civilized 5y ago

I definitely have my bread buttered on the low PDI side, but this is a fascinating concept and I'm sure will help me manage cultural differences productively. I'm now furiously Googling this and apparently it's part of a broader framework called cultural dimensions theory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensions_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimens...

throwaway7865 5y ago

I’m currently interviewing for jobs in Israel and their “straight talk” habit is honestly number one problem for me. People never schedule meetings, they just ask for your phone number and call whether it’s appropriate for them. They interrupt you in the meetings, tell your solution is bad. It may sound refreshing on paper, but honestly you feel treated like a low-skilled worker in a laundry or a kitchen. I’m not a Westerner, but I do come from a background of working with an English company and the difference in respect to boundaries and time is night and day.

josh_fyi 5y ago
I've worked in hi tech in Israel for 20 years and now have a completely international clientele that I work with, and I don't think Israelis in general are like that.
- throwaway7865 5y ago
  My general impression is that “corporate” structures may have some veneer of a professional workplace culture in Israel, but with startups all bets are off. I felt like being at a bazaar where a stranger talks to you like a person they know all their life. Which probably sounds appealing for people tired of Western sugarcoating and is probably great at a party when drinks flow freely. But at workspace it just feels unprofessional and disrespectful. Local friends explained to me that this is cultural. Workplace in Israel is catered to locals and they rarely hire outsiders or expats. People have very short distance, they serve in army together, go to parties together, hide from bombings together. So hierarchy and workspace mannerisms make little sense in that context.
bradknowles 5y ago
Radical honesty is something that I would appreciate and find quite refreshing. Offensiveness just for the sake of being offensive and trying to make other people feel powerless around you, that kind of thing I would not appreciate. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between these two. Now, scheduling, I'm not quite as bad as the Germans, but I do require that stuff get put on the calendar, and you make a really strong effort to hold to that schedule. If you think you can just call me whenever you want, then you can just fuck off. Not even my wife can just call me whenever she wants. Fortunately, she knows this.

crispyambulance 5y ago

I've not heard of the "PDI" concept before this, but I believe the same thing can be achieved by simply adapting to your audience. The problem is actually knowing your audience (as individuals) well enough to assess how they will interpret your words. Can you assume that all Saudi's, for instance, will react well to the somewhat cloying language suggested by the OP's post? I think not. But if you don't personally know the audience it's also tricky to know what each culture's acceptably polite "default" is. I've gotten myself into some etiquette faux-pas in the past by using sarcasm and irreverent humor around Chinese colleagues. My previous experience with Chinese folks had been limited to grad school and I had just (wrongly) assumed that such communication was OK as the default.

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seventhtiger 5y ago
As a Saudi I supposed I can comment on this. The minimum of polite language is higher. Profanity can get you in trouble like getting a written warning, and graphic profanity can land you in handcuffs, like insulting someone's mother. Saying son of a bitch is a misdemeanor. My experience in big corps is that the PDI is high but the power isn't so concerned with neutral formal phrasing. Phrasing in Saudi culture can be shockingly informal even at the highest level, since open tribal gatherings were the highest authority in the land until recently. The King and Princes still run open tribal gatherings where citizens can speak informally. Corporate speak is new and still seen as intrusive to how we do business. How PDI would express itself would be preserving face, I guess. You can't contradict superiors or even coworkers too openly and directly, you can't openly disrespect or be irreverent. All possibly disruptive feedback must be private or you're bringing shame to yourself and others. Startups are not like that at all. They're young, irreverent, and passionate. The young people really express themselves in those spaces with barely any hint of the old school social expectations. Guys and gals taking smoke breaks together and focusing on getting the job done.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I'm really curious how this interacts with display rules, or the emotions we're allowed to show/communicate in different contexts. When you talk of preserving face: > You can't contradict superiors or even coworkers too openly and directly, you can't openly disrespect or be irreverent. All possibly disruptive feedback must be private or you're bringing shame to yourself and others. Are you saying that you're not allowed to express anger to superiors or coworkers in public? Is it the way it's said, the emotion behind it, or something else that seems to matter the most?

michaelbrave 5y ago

People that aren't in power not being able to communicate equally with those in power is why we have 1.Gossip[1] 2.Sarcasm[2][3] and 3.Passive Agressiveness[4]. Sometimes it even manifests as quiet protest and doing small destructive things like not meeting deadlines or other small acts of sabotage[4]. This is rarely understood by those in power though, they would see it only as disrespect rather than the only way to regain some small amount of power. It's also worth thinking about not just broad strokes societal culture at a national level, but also family culture, like the metafilter post[5] about guess vs ask cultures explains, some feel comfortable asking for anything leaving the responder to say no (putting the load from the requester to the requested) while others guess and try to predict and will only ask when they know it will likely be a positive response (putting the load on the requester instead of the requested). Ask culture is probably more healthy, but despite that the real problems are when the two clash. [1] Gossip as Revenge of the Powerless - https://aeon.co/ideas/gossip-was-a-powerful-tool-for-the-powerless-in-ancient-greece https://aeon.co/ideas/gossip-was-a-powerful-tool-for-the-pow... [2] Humor as a Serious Strategy of Nonviolent Resistance to Oppression - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1468-0130.2008.00488.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1468-0130... [3] Follower sarcasm reduces leader overpay by increasing accountability - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002210312100069X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002210312... [4] Powerlessness Corrupts - leads to sabotage - https://hbr.org/2010/07/column-powerlessness-corrupts https://hbr.org/2010/07/column-powerlessness-corrupts [5] Ask & Guess Culture - https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet...

jimkleiber 5y ago
I appreciate so much in this post. I also had never heard of the Ask/Guess culture description. I wonder if there could be another component, a Tell culture. I don't ask you, I don't guess, I just tell you how it is or what you'll do. I think that's another way we communicate and often is even more so a way to avoid the possibility of being rejected. If I ask, you can say no. If I guess, then I can maybe figure out if you say no before you actually do so you don't have to. If I tell you, then there's not much way for you to say no, or if you do, then it is a clear violation of the agreement. I think this happens with some people who are in military culture or other top-down hierarchies where there seems to be a "Tell culture" (I don't like labeling cultures too much with such identity descriptors because I think it can lock them into existence). And I think that can be one of the hardest things for people trying to reintegrate as veterans, to go from telling people what to do and being told what to do to telling your 5-year-old what to do and they say no...and then having to learn to guess or even ask...or more deep down, opening up first and then asking, maybe the most emotionally raw version.

temp8964 5y ago

The context is important. There is cultural difference among countries and fields. There is also the difference from types of communication, i.e. face-to-face or email or slack. There is also the difference from the audience, i.e. who are you talking to, coworkers or clients. There is even individual differences, i.e. different people will perceive differently, simply because their personalities.

avip 5y ago

As an Israeli, I'm fully accustomed and conditioned to tell others their solution is idiotic and their ideas are dumb. But having worked abroad, I've come to depreciate this "quality" more as just bad taste and lack of manners, and less as "straight talking". It really adds little to the conversation. It's just an IDF inheritance that should be eradicated.

jimkleiber 5y ago
I remember asking an American vet what the communication style was within the US military and he said, "Someone who outranks you tells you what to do and there's always someone who outranks you." How you would describe the communication style within the IDF?
- baruch 5y ago
  It depends on your commander, you can buff your commander and tell him he is suggesting something stupid, though if he pushes it you have no real option but to do it. Though if the specific commander was all too happy to assert his rank you knew not to bother. I guess it also depends on what unit you are in, there is likely a very big difference between fighting units (infantry, armor, artillery) with which I'm more familiar and the back-office units.
riazrizvi 5y ago
I think PDI negatively correlates strongly with social safety. In the IDF you are unlikely to be punished for speaking up, and in general that's true in Dutch and Israeli culture for locals talking to one another. Frankness is not punished. In more hierarchical societies where you can be put in jail for pissing off the wrong cousin, frankness can be severely punished, and stories are abound of such. So when the social consequences shift for an individual who is moved to a new setting, then the PDI for that individual will shift hard. Hence you find this working abroad and you've adapted your communication style. But we can do thought experiments on the PDI for the following situations: - Arab talking to Israeli, inside Israel vs inside home country - Israeli outside Israel talking to Jewish vs non-Jewish person - Consumer Salesperson (small commission product, very frequent close opportunities) vs Enterprise Salesperson (large commission product, lots of confirmation pre-close meetings across org, leading to the final sale) I think in each case the PDI will correlate with the negative consequences for the speaker speaking out of turn, once they become habituated to the situation of course.

kingcharles 5y ago

Living in the UK I used to find all the French acted very rude. Then I spent enough time in France to realize the French don't find each other rude, it's just the way they communicate. Once you understand the culture it all makes sense, they're not trying to be dicks.

js2 5y ago

Your comment on different communication styles between cultures reminds me of a (famous?) metafilter comment, the difference between Ask Culture and Guess Culture: http://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 http://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-betw...

darkerside 5y ago
That is a hilarious thread. My take is that the initial request is quite rude, not for asking, but for including a veiled threat that they won't be able to see each other if it doesn't work out. This is classic manipulation, and I hope the couple said no!
- aynsof 5y ago
  I reread the letter, but I'm still not seeing the veiled threat here. Would you be able to spell out where/what it is?
  - js2 5y ago
    "I hope this works out /so/ we can see each other!" Implies that they won't be able to see each other unless the host allows the guest to stay with them. Of course, this only works as a threat if the guest assumes the host wants their company in the first place. I don't find it to be a threat because the guest would only be withholding something the host doesn't want in the first place. That said, changing one word makes a big difference: "I hope this works out /and/ we can see each other!" This way seeing each other is disconnected from the hosting. FWIW I don't find the request rude in the first place. The asker doesn't know she's making the request of someone who doesn't like her. Jeff seems offended that the woman mentioned his name ("I don't even know this woman.") But to me, that's just being polite as opposed to leaving him out entirely or referring to him generally (i.e. "you and your husband").
    - aynsof 5y ago
      Thanks for explaining. I'm a native English speaker who grew up in a (fairly?) strongly guess culture, and I'm still really surprised that anyone would find this rude or threatening. It's interesting to see the very different interpretations.

NikolaNovak 5y ago

I currently work for a federal public sector client. The substitutes are all I hear day in and day out. We can talk about what oughta be all day long; and that's a fun and important conversation of its own; but should not be confused with what is -- at my current client/project, you definitely need to learn the language if you want to be successful. And not in a "BS-y management successful", I mean get anything done including architecture and development. C'est la vie! (FWIW, after decades of complaining and moaning, I decided to approach people / projects / relationships with at least a fraction of analytical mindset and effort that I take to technical problems. It's been both rewarding and effective and fascinating, and dear gawd I wish I paid attention to it earlier rather than spending all that time moaning and complaining. Again, we can have a discussion about how ideal world should be, and we can work toward changing it, but it absolutely has to start with actually understanding it. I'll take a look at the PDI, anything that helps understand the mechanics of work relationships is beneficial - thx! :)

vmception 5y ago

> Some of the lowest PDI countries in the world are Israel, and many Northern European countries because its the same people right? like its just a branch from the same culture due to very recent immigration trends

mastax 5y ago
No[1]. Unless a surprising proportion of the Jews from the "Former USSR" are from the Baltics, there are far more Israeli Jews from e.g. Morocco than from Northern Europe. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_and_religious_groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_... Chart only includes Jews, unfortunately, but that is 75% of the population.
- vmception 5y ago
  thanks! very useful chart

RugnirViking 5y ago

I did have a read about that, the PDI makes a lot of sense to me and is pretty interesting if a little pseudoscientific (nowhere can quite seem to pin down how the numbered ratings are calculated but it seems arbritrary) - this being said its not clear if a thing such as cultural difference can have numbers put to it easily if at all, and I'd largely agree with the ratings of countries I have experience with. But man that got me into looking at some of the other measures used alongside that, and the "Long Term Orientation" might be some of the most inane, incoherent garbage I have ever heard. I'd say it's asian exceptionalism but it's not even that - it just doesn't make sense. Every explanation of it seems different, and most explanations aren't internally consistent, literally including examples of the same thing at opposite ends as though it were different. As far as I can tell the original concept seems to have started out with "lets make a rating that puts china at the top/I heard of yin and yang once" and gone from there, but even then as described it usually is stupid, putting things like "belief in tradition" and "desire for stability" as things in the SHORT term column and "adaptability" in the long term column like lol what

andrei_says_ 5y ago

What are some good resources for learning more about the PDI, its meaning and how it's measured? Also, how does one apply this information? Lastly, what about international teams? I have colleagues from different parts of the world - how would this apply in a meeting where some are USAnians, some Canadians, some German and some Eastern a European. Lastly, the US is huge. SoCal is probably different from Missouri from Cambridge, MA. Would love to hear your take on this.

raxxorraxor 5y ago

Direct language also suggest commitment, so clearly you dial that back in higher positions where every word is put on a scale. It still remains bullshit corporate speak as the language isn't just more polite, it tries to stay non-binding, basically a refusal at communication. It doesn't say anything about hostility either. A support worker will still smile while having unsavory thoughts about the customer. Hence many people think of it as a dishonest form of communication which it basically is. If you represent a company in public, you have no real choice not to use it. Rules of amoral businesses.