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"Both are corporate lobbying against people & tech. It's a pattern," Right, the trouble is that our democracies really haven't proper ways of handling this typ

"Both are corporate lobbying against people & tech. It's a pattern," Right, the trouble is that our democracies really haven't proper ways of handling this type of monopoly. It seems to me that the problem will not be solved until individuals are no longer allowed to hide behind corporate walls and thus not able to be individually held accountable or liable for their actions. Fear of public exposure and ridicule not to mention penalties imposed on them for their actions would stop most of this behaviour. The trouble is that large corporations have such a stranglehold on governments that it's proving very difficult to do anything about the problem. It's one of the biggest problems facing our democracies, I only wish I knew how we could solve it.

rhaksw 5y ago
> I only wish I knew how we could solve it. The public sphere changed with the advent of social media. At first, corporations and governments found themselves at the whims of people, and then it flipped. I believe we may be able to bring back some balance with reviewable moderation such as via a site I made, https://www.reveddit.com/about/faq/ https://www.reveddit.com/about/faq/
- hilbert42 5y ago
  Perhaps so, every bit counts. But I cannot see how these problematic matters are going to be fixed unless the individuals who have the power to affect the lives of others are brought to account by one means or another. We should know who these individuals are whether they're making decisions that are in our interests or otherwise. As it stands now many of the individuals who've the power and who have altered our lives for good or worse by their decisions remain hidden completely anonymously behind both corporate and government bureaucracies. Anonymity, has in many instances enabled them to act without accountability and with complete impunity. This is the crux of the problem, until these individuals know that their decisions will be gone over with a fine-toothed comb by the population at large and that they will be held accountable then nothing will change. Both now and in the past the argument against this approach is that such scrutiny will make decision-makers ineffective in that they'll be too scared to make hard or effective decisions. This is a weasel argument argued by bureaucracies to protect themselves and to make their lives easier. There are numerous ways to protect individuals who make 'sensible' decisions from, say, an over-zealous citizenry or unreasonable shareholders who may not understand all the facts but that's for another discussion. Change has to come because this anonymity has allowed fairness and due process to be so abused that our institutions now have an ethical crisis. It's why so few people have faith in or have respect for them anymore.
  - rhaksw 5y ago
    > I cannot see how these problematic matters are going to be fixed unless the individuals who have the power to affect the lives of others are brought to account by one means or another. It's happening, even while they are anonymous. When unscrupulous mods cannot maintain the theater of innocence while continuing to manipulate, they tend to step aside themselves or be put aside by Reddit [4-6]. Deanonymizing the internet isn't going to happen because that would be hugely unpopular. But also, you'd need to wall it off because it will always be possible to be anonymous in certain parts of the world. It may not be enough to know who's in charge. Consider how many actions public figures take that we don't know about. > This is the crux of the problem, until these individuals know that their decisions will be gone over with a fine-toothed comb by the population at large and that they will be held accountable then nothing will change. This is precisely it. Knowing their actions alone may be enough. It's hard to grow a following, so when faced with knowledge of their actions, mods are incentivized to incorporate users' feedback into their moderation style. Perhaps surprisingly, this can all happen while they are anonymous! And that's a good thing because again, there are parts of the world we just can't deanonymize, to say nothing of the backlash such a policy would have in the free world. The more who know about Reddit's secret removal feature [1], the more difficult it will be for Reddit to keep that feature as is. I've observed positive changes in communities that know about it. Mod behavior does change when users are informed about removals. Still, Reveddit is not widely known, and it can be difficult to share since mods often remove it. When I first made this site I assumed it would go viral immediately. I overlooked the fact that mods would often remove it or even add it to their automod configurations [2] so that it becomes unmentionable. > Both now and in the past the argument against this approach is that such scrutiny will make decision-makers ineffective in that they'll be too scared to make hard or effective decisions. Yes, I've heard that. Former presidential advisor Ben Rhodes, at a recent panel on disinformation, remarked [3] that it used to drive him insane that in 2014-2015 he was unable to immediately declassify imagery of Russian weapons and personnel flowing into eastern Ukraine, even though that imagery was commercially available. He says 2022's instant declassification process is clearly much more effective. > Change has to come because this anonymity has allowed fairness and due process to be so abused that our institutions now have an ethical crisis. It's why so few people have faith in or have respect for them anymore. In my opinion, it's not the anonymity that is the significant issue, it is that the actions themselves are hidden in a way that users do not expect. That may be why some mods consider it to be so effective. [1] https://www.reveddit.com/images/removed-views.png https://www.reveddit.com/images/removed-views.png [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/ocflqy/has_anyone_else_got_a_request_from_reddit_to_fill/h3v2b2g/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/ocflqy/has_anyo... [3] https://youtu.be/Nd1CKG3o818?t=24473 https://youtu.be/Nd1CKG3o818?t=24473 [4] https://archive.ph/mMMUp https://archive.ph/mMMUp [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/tluuv5/genzedong_moderator_statement_on_the_quarantine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/tluuv5/genzedong... [6] https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/txucxj/genzedong_moderator_statement_regarding_our/?limit=500 https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/txucxj/genzedong...

rhaksw 5y ago

> I only wish I knew how we could solve it. The public sphere changed with the advent of social media. At first, corporations and governments found themselves at the whims of people, and then it flipped. I believe we may be able to bring back some balance with reviewable moderation such as via a site I made, https://www.reveddit.com/about/faq/ https://www.reveddit.com/about/faq/

hilbert42 5y ago
Perhaps so, every bit counts. But I cannot see how these problematic matters are going to be fixed unless the individuals who have the power to affect the lives of others are brought to account by one means or another. We should know who these individuals are whether they're making decisions that are in our interests or otherwise. As it stands now many of the individuals who've the power and who have altered our lives for good or worse by their decisions remain hidden completely anonymously behind both corporate and government bureaucracies. Anonymity, has in many instances enabled them to act without accountability and with complete impunity. This is the crux of the problem, until these individuals know that their decisions will be gone over with a fine-toothed comb by the population at large and that they will be held accountable then nothing will change. Both now and in the past the argument against this approach is that such scrutiny will make decision-makers ineffective in that they'll be too scared to make hard or effective decisions. This is a weasel argument argued by bureaucracies to protect themselves and to make their lives easier. There are numerous ways to protect individuals who make 'sensible' decisions from, say, an over-zealous citizenry or unreasonable shareholders who may not understand all the facts but that's for another discussion. Change has to come because this anonymity has allowed fairness and due process to be so abused that our institutions now have an ethical crisis. It's why so few people have faith in or have respect for them anymore.
- rhaksw 5y ago
  > I cannot see how these problematic matters are going to be fixed unless the individuals who have the power to affect the lives of others are brought to account by one means or another. It's happening, even while they are anonymous. When unscrupulous mods cannot maintain the theater of innocence while continuing to manipulate, they tend to step aside themselves or be put aside by Reddit [4-6]. Deanonymizing the internet isn't going to happen because that would be hugely unpopular. But also, you'd need to wall it off because it will always be possible to be anonymous in certain parts of the world. It may not be enough to know who's in charge. Consider how many actions public figures take that we don't know about. > This is the crux of the problem, until these individuals know that their decisions will be gone over with a fine-toothed comb by the population at large and that they will be held accountable then nothing will change. This is precisely it. Knowing their actions alone may be enough. It's hard to grow a following, so when faced with knowledge of their actions, mods are incentivized to incorporate users' feedback into their moderation style. Perhaps surprisingly, this can all happen while they are anonymous! And that's a good thing because again, there are parts of the world we just can't deanonymize, to say nothing of the backlash such a policy would have in the free world. The more who know about Reddit's secret removal feature [1], the more difficult it will be for Reddit to keep that feature as is. I've observed positive changes in communities that know about it. Mod behavior does change when users are informed about removals. Still, Reveddit is not widely known, and it can be difficult to share since mods often remove it. When I first made this site I assumed it would go viral immediately. I overlooked the fact that mods would often remove it or even add it to their automod configurations [2] so that it becomes unmentionable. > Both now and in the past the argument against this approach is that such scrutiny will make decision-makers ineffective in that they'll be too scared to make hard or effective decisions. Yes, I've heard that. Former presidential advisor Ben Rhodes, at a recent panel on disinformation, remarked [3] that it used to drive him insane that in 2014-2015 he was unable to immediately declassify imagery of Russian weapons and personnel flowing into eastern Ukraine, even though that imagery was commercially available. He says 2022's instant declassification process is clearly much more effective. > Change has to come because this anonymity has allowed fairness and due process to be so abused that our institutions now have an ethical crisis. It's why so few people have faith in or have respect for them anymore. In my opinion, it's not the anonymity that is the significant issue, it is that the actions themselves are hidden in a way that users do not expect. That may be why some mods consider it to be so effective. [1] https://www.reveddit.com/images/removed-views.png https://www.reveddit.com/images/removed-views.png [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/ocflqy/has_anyone_else_got_a_request_from_reddit_to_fill/h3v2b2g/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/ocflqy/has_anyo... [3] https://youtu.be/Nd1CKG3o818?t=24473 https://youtu.be/Nd1CKG3o818?t=24473 [4] https://archive.ph/mMMUp https://archive.ph/mMMUp [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/tluuv5/genzedong_moderator_statement_on_the_quarantine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/tluuv5/genzedong... [6] https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/txucxj/genzedong_moderator_statement_regarding_our/?limit=500 https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/txucxj/genzedong...