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I am in fact in favor of “troll factories” being allowed to spread “pro war propaganda” online, because I do not think we should have the norm in place that vid

I am in fact in favor of “troll factories” being allowed to spread “pro war propaganda” online, because I do not think we should have the norm in place that videos can simply be declared propaganda and censored because they might cause someone to disagree with the foreign policy goals of whatever government they live under. For example, if that was permissible and expected, then I would fully expect a hypothetical video of $ALLY/SELF committing war crimes to be censored as $ENEMY propaganda. Just as the Russians do. If you entrust the “experts” with the ability to tell you what is true, you will not be living in a democratic society.

deepsun 5y ago
I'd agree with you if I didn't see first-hand how propaganda starts wars. And yes, reasonable censorship helps, e.g. YouTube blocking RT is very much positive for the whole world.
- Amezarak 5y ago
  Propaganda has always been a problem and democracies and led to wars. What is different now? Also, in this particular case, what war are we stopping by banning Americans or Europeans from seeing Russian propaganda? It looks to me like that ship has sailed. In fact, if anything, it appears to be we’ve opened the floodgates to pro-Ukrainian propaganda, as if being anti-Russian invasion means we must therefore accept all things pro-Ukraine. As with the Ghost of Kiev, people have even said even if it’s not true, we should still believe it. Since this type of propaganda has encouraged the arming of Ukraine by the west and increasing escalations, it seems like it is more likely to increase the scale, scope, and length of the war. Should we ban Ukrainian propaganda?
Gupie 5y ago
I was arguing against the dogma that all censorship is bad. I can understand your point of view, but I don't agree with it. We are in an information war with Russia (and other such undemocratic entities). We have been for years and we have been losing it. I am also needless to say against war crimes no matter which side perpetrates them so videos of $ALLY/SELF committing them that come from reputable source or that can be verified should not be censored.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  And somehow, because you feel uneasy with Russian propaganda, you feel entitled to deny my right to consume and analyse it?
  - Gupie 5y ago
    I feel a democratically elected government it entitled to deny your right to consume such propaganda, although I don't understand why you would want to.
    - DocTomoe 5y ago
      I feel that there are things that democratically elected governments is not entitled to do, like denying my basic human rights, which include my right to inform myself about world affairs from sources that do not align with said government's desired narrative, especially so when such methods could lead to a population making democratic decisions on falsified or misleading information. Manufactured consent is just as dangerous as allegedly fake news from outside actors.
      - Gupie 5y ago
        Yes but if the autocrats win you will have no rights period.
        DocTomoe 5y ago
        And that's why I so vehemently argue against them.
    - Markoff 5y ago
      You mean like democratically elected Hitler's Nazi party government?
- Amezarak 5y ago
  You cannot have censorship of “disinformation” and democracy. They are necessary antagonisms. If you want a free society you just have to accept that sometimes people will hear and believe untruths and do your best to argue your side. This has been the case from the beginning - even in America, we have ample examples from the post-revolutionary era of people complaining that “designing men” were misleading the public to rile them up against their representatives. And of course, the Adams administration used the foreign policy position of the state to throw their critics in prison as being seditious. People like to say that well, social media has changed everything. In fact, we’ve simply returned to a situation more like what we had prior to centralized mass media, where rumors and panics and “disinformation” originating in the common people (and often blamed on foreigners) frequently caused all kinds of dramatic events and political upsets. The very idea of an “information war” that can be won only by silencing your adversary is an attack on democracy. > videos of $ALLY/SELF committing them that come from reputable source or that can be verified should not be censored There is no world where the authority delegated to protect us from propaganda isn’t going to censor these. It’s well and good to posit the idea that untruth shouldn’t be allowed but by giving someone the authority to arbitrate what is reputable and true you’ve already ceded the entire idea of self-governance.

deepsun 5y ago

I'd agree with you if I didn't see first-hand how propaganda starts wars. And yes, reasonable censorship helps, e.g. YouTube blocking RT is very much positive for the whole world.

Amezarak 5y ago
Propaganda has always been a problem and democracies and led to wars. What is different now? Also, in this particular case, what war are we stopping by banning Americans or Europeans from seeing Russian propaganda? It looks to me like that ship has sailed. In fact, if anything, it appears to be we’ve opened the floodgates to pro-Ukrainian propaganda, as if being anti-Russian invasion means we must therefore accept all things pro-Ukraine. As with the Ghost of Kiev, people have even said even if it’s not true, we should still believe it. Since this type of propaganda has encouraged the arming of Ukraine by the west and increasing escalations, it seems like it is more likely to increase the scale, scope, and length of the war. Should we ban Ukrainian propaganda?

Gupie 5y ago

I was arguing against the dogma that all censorship is bad. I can understand your point of view, but I don't agree with it. We are in an information war with Russia (and other such undemocratic entities). We have been for years and we have been losing it. I am also needless to say against war crimes no matter which side perpetrates them so videos of $ALLY/SELF committing them that come from reputable source or that can be verified should not be censored.

DocTomoe 5y ago
And somehow, because you feel uneasy with Russian propaganda, you feel entitled to deny my right to consume and analyse it?
- Gupie 5y ago
  I feel a democratically elected government it entitled to deny your right to consume such propaganda, although I don't understand why you would want to.
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    I feel that there are things that democratically elected governments is not entitled to do, like denying my basic human rights, which include my right to inform myself about world affairs from sources that do not align with said government's desired narrative, especially so when such methods could lead to a population making democratic decisions on falsified or misleading information. Manufactured consent is just as dangerous as allegedly fake news from outside actors.
    - Gupie 5y ago
      Yes but if the autocrats win you will have no rights period.
      - DocTomoe 5y ago
        And that's why I so vehemently argue against them.
  - Markoff 5y ago
    You mean like democratically elected Hitler's Nazi party government?
Amezarak 5y ago
You cannot have censorship of “disinformation” and democracy. They are necessary antagonisms. If you want a free society you just have to accept that sometimes people will hear and believe untruths and do your best to argue your side. This has been the case from the beginning - even in America, we have ample examples from the post-revolutionary era of people complaining that “designing men” were misleading the public to rile them up against their representatives. And of course, the Adams administration used the foreign policy position of the state to throw their critics in prison as being seditious. People like to say that well, social media has changed everything. In fact, we’ve simply returned to a situation more like what we had prior to centralized mass media, where rumors and panics and “disinformation” originating in the common people (and often blamed on foreigners) frequently caused all kinds of dramatic events and political upsets. The very idea of an “information war” that can be won only by silencing your adversary is an attack on democracy. > videos of $ALLY/SELF committing them that come from reputable source or that can be verified should not be censored There is no world where the authority delegated to protect us from propaganda isn’t going to censor these. It’s well and good to posit the idea that untruth shouldn’t be allowed but by giving someone the authority to arbitrate what is reputable and true you’ve already ceded the entire idea of self-governance.