5 ms·

Only in the tech sector do we think we should be able to show up with a T-shirt and greasy hair. Looks/hygiene/culture fit is important and there isn't a singl

by alar44 4y ago

Only in the tech sector do we think we should be able to show up with a T-shirt and greasy hair. Looks/hygiene/culture fit is important and there isn't a single field where it isn't. If you can be bothered to try to fit in a little bit, it goes a long way. Otherwise, feel free to be unemployed and bitch about it in your basement while the world moves on.

mtrower 4y ago
??? Showing up not looking like this, can also cause you to not get hired. Discrimination on non-performance factors is real on all sides of the fence. Anyway this isn’t the point; the point was that it’s sad you need to hide your age using clothing.
- alar44 4y ago
  It not hiding your age. It's showing that you are still in touch with new things and able to go with the flow. It's not even that hard. If you're 55, just don't show up with a baggy suit and fat tie you bought in the 80s. This is good advice for anyone - know how to dress for an interview.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
T-shirt and greasy hair are as much a uniform and a declaration of tribal orientation as a business suit is. Clothes are always a uniform and a social signal, whether or not they're formally labelled as such. It's also one of the covert reasons age is an issue. It's not about competence, it's about the fact that it's very difficult to have equal relationships with people who are the same age as your parents or kids. An age gap that wide goes with a generation gap in expected behaviours, cultural references, implied ethics - and more, including default problem solving habits. It would be good if this wasn't true, but it's hard to see how it can be avoided. It would take extremely unusual maturity and self-awareness not to be influenced by it in either direction. It's not that it can't be made to work, but I don't think it can be made to work easily. It's an extra level of friction, which is why it's an unpopular option when hiring teams. TBH I suspect that anyone over - say - 40 is probably best off hiring themselves out as a consultant rather than trying to find work as a full-timer on a relatively young team. Consultancy isn't just professionally distinct, it creates a different social dynamic which seems to be easier for everyone.
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  I agree that the scruffy tech is a uniform of it's own. I used to do it consciously myself, partly as a "joking but really". Different images for different audiences or different aims. As for friction, that diversity should be actively saught, not allowed through blindness. That friction and diversity of approach and standards and reasoning is a good thing. I'm over 50 now so now I'm almost not allowed to express such reasoning because it is taken as self serving, but when I was 30 the old-timers in my shop were the people I admired the most, still do. Even though yes there were a few differences of opinion and approach that never really went away. I picked my battles instead of being a baby about every single thing, and they in turn actually respected my input when I decided to take stance on something, state my case, and force us both to explain and defend the different positions and hash it out. Either I convinced them or they convinced me, and whichever way that went, we did that. There were a few things where neither convinced the other, but, really very few. It's tolerable and worth it. I got way more out of working with these people, and so did the company and our customers. I don't think I was a incredibly mature 30 year old. I mean, I've seen some of my old newsgroup posts. I really wasn't :)
- a9h74j 4y ago
  > Clothes are always a uniform and a social signal, whether or not they're formally labelled as such. As a product of the 1960s there was a reaction by lefty columnist Paul Krassner, IIRC. He referred (if it wasn't someone else who popularized this) to grey flannel sandals. A take-off on the standard criticism of "grey flannel suits.

by alar44 4y ago

mtrower 4y ago

??? Showing up not looking like this, can also cause you to not get hired. Discrimination on non-performance factors is real on all sides of the fence. Anyway this isn’t the point; the point was that it’s sad you need to hide your age using clothing.

alar44 4y ago
It not hiding your age. It's showing that you are still in touch with new things and able to go with the flow. It's not even that hard. If you're 55, just don't show up with a baggy suit and fat tie you bought in the 80s. This is good advice for anyone - know how to dress for an interview.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago

T-shirt and greasy hair are as much a uniform and a declaration of tribal orientation as a business suit is. Clothes are always a uniform and a social signal, whether or not they're formally labelled as such. It's also one of the covert reasons age is an issue. It's not about competence, it's about the fact that it's very difficult to have equal relationships with people who are the same age as your parents or kids. An age gap that wide goes with a generation gap in expected behaviours, cultural references, implied ethics - and more, including default problem solving habits. It would be good if this wasn't true, but it's hard to see how it can be avoided. It would take extremely unusual maturity and self-awareness not to be influenced by it in either direction. It's not that it can't be made to work, but I don't think it can be made to work easily. It's an extra level of friction, which is why it's an unpopular option when hiring teams. TBH I suspect that anyone over - say - 40 is probably best off hiring themselves out as a consultant rather than trying to find work as a full-timer on a relatively young team. Consultancy isn't just professionally distinct, it creates a different social dynamic which seems to be easier for everyone.

Brian_K_White 4y ago
I agree that the scruffy tech is a uniform of it's own. I used to do it consciously myself, partly as a "joking but really". Different images for different audiences or different aims. As for friction, that diversity should be actively saught, not allowed through blindness. That friction and diversity of approach and standards and reasoning is a good thing. I'm over 50 now so now I'm almost not allowed to express such reasoning because it is taken as self serving, but when I was 30 the old-timers in my shop were the people I admired the most, still do. Even though yes there were a few differences of opinion and approach that never really went away. I picked my battles instead of being a baby about every single thing, and they in turn actually respected my input when I decided to take stance on something, state my case, and force us both to explain and defend the different positions and hash it out. Either I convinced them or they convinced me, and whichever way that went, we did that. There were a few things where neither convinced the other, but, really very few. It's tolerable and worth it. I got way more out of working with these people, and so did the company and our customers. I don't think I was a incredibly mature 30 year old. I mean, I've seen some of my old newsgroup posts. I really wasn't :)
a9h74j 4y ago
> Clothes are always a uniform and a social signal, whether or not they're formally labelled as such. As a product of the 1960s there was a reaction by lefty columnist Paul Krassner, IIRC. He referred (if it wasn't someone else who popularized this) to grey flannel sandals. A take-off on the standard criticism of "grey flannel suits.