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> Let's say a man wants a baby and the woman doesn't. Find another woman ? > The man has control over consent to unprotected sex. Choice >Now, let's say a m

> Let's say a man wants a baby and the woman doesn't. Find another woman ? > The man has control over consent to unprotected sex. Choice >Now, let's say a man doesn't want a baby. >The man has control to consent to protected sex only Choice again > As you see, the power dynamics are skewed heavily. But the outcomes are skewed heavily too In a tiny percentage of cases intercourse produces a baby The woman has to carry the baby to term for 9 months, take care of her body, eat well, rest enough, don’t drink alcohol, stop working, go through a painful delivery that will change her body forever, doctors are involved, life or death situations then the baby needs food and clothing…

grapeskin 5y ago
> Find another woman ? If it were that easy, you wouldn't have dating websites being worth billions of dollars and with userbases skewed heavily towards men instead of women. There's also the fact that men outnumber women by single and even double digit percentages in some areas. Men often take what they can get, because a significant number have well-founded fears that they might not have another chance.
- foogazi 5y ago
  > > Find another woman ? > If it were that easy, Then don’t I was referring to the scenario of man wants baby, woman does not What are you going to do at that point ?
giantg2 5y ago
I didn't say they weren't choices. My point was the man's choice is limited and only at the beginning of the process and they have no real mitigating power, or even a legally supported way to negotiate agreements on the terms of their consent. Yes, unprotected sex has a relatively small fertilization rate. That is also true for the life and death situations you mention (unprotected sex could also be life or death depending on communicable diseases if we are looking at edge cases). "then the baby needs food and clothing…" Which doesn't only affect the mother. Child support is a larger burden on the non-custodial parent, which tends to be men. That lasts a lot longer than 9 months too. I know people who had to pick up second jobs, be subjected to more stress, etc to make those payments and it affected their health. So the costs may come in different forms, but they do affect both parents. "that will change her body forever" What are the scope, occurrence, and significance of those? In my very limited experience, I don't notice any significant, permanent, negative changes in the majority of cases. The easiest way to demonstrate this skewed power dynamic is to understand that baby trapping only works for one sex, as they are the only ones with the post intercourse mitigations. I'm not saying anything is necessarily wrong. What am I saying is that concerns about a lack of control over a life changing event are not trivial for either parent, and one of them is completely under the control of the other in the event their limited choice (condom) fails.
- foogazi 5y ago
  > What am I saying is that concerns about a lack of control over a life changing event are not trivial for either parent, and one of them is completely under the control of the other in the event their limited choice (condom) fails. Ejaculations (can) have consequences The only thing that makes it non-trivial for males is child support - and that is a recent invention Social pressure and stigma on unwed mothers has been orders of magnitude stronger than for fathers That’s where shotgun weddings come from, to preserve honor and enforce social norms, making sure two parents take care of the kid
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Please, reread your argument. You claim that aside from child support, having a child is trivial for a man and that the social pressure is orders of magnitude higher for mothers. You then bring up shotgun weddings - where a man is forced under lethal threat to marry. That's sounds about as non-trivial as one can get...

grapeskin 5y ago

> Find another woman ? If it were that easy, you wouldn't have dating websites being worth billions of dollars and with userbases skewed heavily towards men instead of women. There's also the fact that men outnumber women by single and even double digit percentages in some areas. Men often take what they can get, because a significant number have well-founded fears that they might not have another chance.

foogazi 5y ago
> > Find another woman ? > If it were that easy, Then don’t I was referring to the scenario of man wants baby, woman does not What are you going to do at that point ?

giantg2 5y ago

I didn't say they weren't choices. My point was the man's choice is limited and only at the beginning of the process and they have no real mitigating power, or even a legally supported way to negotiate agreements on the terms of their consent. Yes, unprotected sex has a relatively small fertilization rate. That is also true for the life and death situations you mention (unprotected sex could also be life or death depending on communicable diseases if we are looking at edge cases). "then the baby needs food and clothing…" Which doesn't only affect the mother. Child support is a larger burden on the non-custodial parent, which tends to be men. That lasts a lot longer than 9 months too. I know people who had to pick up second jobs, be subjected to more stress, etc to make those payments and it affected their health. So the costs may come in different forms, but they do affect both parents. "that will change her body forever" What are the scope, occurrence, and significance of those? In my very limited experience, I don't notice any significant, permanent, negative changes in the majority of cases. The easiest way to demonstrate this skewed power dynamic is to understand that baby trapping only works for one sex, as they are the only ones with the post intercourse mitigations. I'm not saying anything is necessarily wrong. What am I saying is that concerns about a lack of control over a life changing event are not trivial for either parent, and one of them is completely under the control of the other in the event their limited choice (condom) fails.

foogazi 5y ago
> What am I saying is that concerns about a lack of control over a life changing event are not trivial for either parent, and one of them is completely under the control of the other in the event their limited choice (condom) fails. Ejaculations (can) have consequences The only thing that makes it non-trivial for males is child support - and that is a recent invention Social pressure and stigma on unwed mothers has been orders of magnitude stronger than for fathers That’s where shotgun weddings come from, to preserve honor and enforce social norms, making sure two parents take care of the kid
- giantg2 5y ago
  Please, reread your argument. You claim that aside from child support, having a child is trivial for a man and that the social pressure is orders of magnitude higher for mothers. You then bring up shotgun weddings - where a man is forced under lethal threat to marry. That's sounds about as non-trivial as one can get...