4 ms·

In the past we have had electric bus with electricity coming from an aerial network, surely they have some limits, but they are the sole logic design for a city

by kkfx 5y ago

In the past we have had electric bus with electricity coming from an aerial network, surely they have some limits, but they are the sole logic design for a city. A small battery just to emergency maneuver but nothing more. It's FAR cheaper and it's already proved they can last 50+ years without much maintenance. Batteries are meaningful for cars and trucks waiting for some aerial electrical network like starting from highways, so again we need smaller batteries just to being able to travel on 100Km (~60+miles) ranges.

goodpoint 5y ago
Even better: trams and light rail. Smoother ride and no particulate from tyres.
- plater 5y ago
  Electric wire bus is better than tram as it does not require expensive tracks. It is also much easier to change the route. The tracks also create a lot of noise and vibration that gets into nearby buildings. Tracks are also dangerous for bicycles, and slippery for cars and trams. There might be benefits with trams, but I do not know what.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    > expensive tracks Trams and trains are incredibly energy efficient even with heavy loads because of that. In the long term their TCO wins. > Tracks are also dangerous for bicycles, and slippery for cars and trams Not really. Besides, bicycles should have their lanes anyways.
  - Drunk_Engineer 5y ago
    The main benefit of trams is that multiple cars can be coupled together.
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      And comfort. Streetcars on rails are so smooooth, compared to buses where it's always a bumpy ride.
      - quesera 5y ago
        > Streetcars on rails are so smooooth They should be, at least. San Francisco runs historic (interesting, attractive) cars on the Market Street line, some of which sound and feel like the rails are surfaced with gravel. Every time I ride one of the orange cars from Milan Italy, I am reminded that the Milanese in the 1930s had bigger things to worry about, and that I should just get over it. :)
  - yakak 5y ago
    > There might be benefits with trams, but I do not know what. Good tram systems don't share the asphalt except at intersections making public transportation a win for the individual which in turn reduces traffic. Buses always suck, that is an important part of their design.
  - dfawcus 5y ago
    Not having a consumable battery pack which has to be replaced, and mineral resources expended upon making new sets? There is obviously a trade off, some routes are obviously suitable to trams, some others to buses, be they all electric or hybrid. So possibly in ICE mode out of urban areas, and on battery within?
Galxeagle 5y ago
Overhead wires take a lot of maintenance - point of reference, Vancouver BC's transit authority reported maintenance costs per km were actually higher for their electric trolleys than both their diesel and CNG buses. And having lived with them, being effectively restricted to being 'on rails' leads to challenges in traffic or road closures where traditional buses would re-route down a different street. I think battery-buses are the future - the ability to roll and change routes without capital infrastructure set up will be king https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/about-translink/corporate-reports/efficiency_review_march_2012.pdf https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/about-t... (page 77, PDF page 90)
- kkfx 5y ago
  Thanks for the report, not so easy to source valuable information! I nevertheless object with a side reasoning: costs are complex beast, in an age of scarcity, where oil is pushed aside no matter if for good or bad reasons, how costs can change? I mean: maintaining an aerial network and relevant trolleys is surely expensive, but expensive in what? In natural resources or in worked hours q and hour of vehicle mandatory stops? If it's just in worked hours/maintenance time than in the aforementioned age of scarcity such cost does not matter much. Few marginal notes: - at page 77 the graph 5-35 show a curious cost per km change in late 2008, why? Is this due to aging or to purely economical factors like supply chain changes for spare parts, safety norms changes etc? - the ability to roll and change routes without capital infrastructure set up will be king is another complex beast: on scale that's the reason many researchers try to push naval and very-short-range aviation, from flying taxis to city-to-nearby-city small scale logistics: STOL/VTOL have almost the same industrial cost (beware, industrial not price tag on sale) than modern cars and vans, they cost more in opex but new physical road/rail infra development and regular maintenance/changes cost skyrocketing high capex for an uncertain future since they demand 10+y just to be finished on scale and they need 30-50+y to be paid back enough. At city scale though maintaining a complete coverage of a municipal aerial electrical grid for vehicles especially if we ALSO open if to future other transports (like food distribution logistic till even private cars) might be sustainable. Not in today economy, but in the new world one. In the end actual cities are not sustainable already, we figure out new smaller cities that look like much to small factories with workers inside also for this issue... - with actual battery chemistry we simply can't sustain a real BEV fleet, we can't produce enough batteries for a new FIRST generation of vehicles nor we know how to recycle them to having enough resources for the next generation in just 5-8 years. BEVs can be done for a small scale of private vehicles, mostly targeting wealthy people + some "glorified golf cart" [1] for specific short range usage... [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3vny5/glorified-electric-golf-carts-for-all https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3vny5/glorified-electric-go...

by kkfx 5y ago

goodpoint 5y ago

Even better: trams and light rail. Smoother ride and no particulate from tyres.

plater 5y ago
Electric wire bus is better than tram as it does not require expensive tracks. It is also much easier to change the route. The tracks also create a lot of noise and vibration that gets into nearby buildings. Tracks are also dangerous for bicycles, and slippery for cars and trams. There might be benefits with trams, but I do not know what.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  > expensive tracks Trams and trains are incredibly energy efficient even with heavy loads because of that. In the long term their TCO wins. > Tracks are also dangerous for bicycles, and slippery for cars and trams Not really. Besides, bicycles should have their lanes anyways.
- Drunk_Engineer 5y ago
  The main benefit of trams is that multiple cars can be coupled together.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    And comfort. Streetcars on rails are so smooooth, compared to buses where it's always a bumpy ride.
    - quesera 5y ago
      > Streetcars on rails are so smooooth They should be, at least. San Francisco runs historic (interesting, attractive) cars on the Market Street line, some of which sound and feel like the rails are surfaced with gravel. Every time I ride one of the orange cars from Milan Italy, I am reminded that the Milanese in the 1930s had bigger things to worry about, and that I should just get over it. :)
- yakak 5y ago
  > There might be benefits with trams, but I do not know what. Good tram systems don't share the asphalt except at intersections making public transportation a win for the individual which in turn reduces traffic. Buses always suck, that is an important part of their design.
- dfawcus 5y ago
  Not having a consumable battery pack which has to be replaced, and mineral resources expended upon making new sets? There is obviously a trade off, some routes are obviously suitable to trams, some others to buses, be they all electric or hybrid. So possibly in ICE mode out of urban areas, and on battery within?

Galxeagle 5y ago

Overhead wires take a lot of maintenance - point of reference, Vancouver BC's transit authority reported maintenance costs per km were actually higher for their electric trolleys than both their diesel and CNG buses. And having lived with them, being effectively restricted to being 'on rails' leads to challenges in traffic or road closures where traditional buses would re-route down a different street. I think battery-buses are the future - the ability to roll and change routes without capital infrastructure set up will be king https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/about-translink/corporate-reports/efficiency_review_march_2012.pdf https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/about-t... (page 77, PDF page 90)

kkfx 5y ago
Thanks for the report, not so easy to source valuable information! I nevertheless object with a side reasoning: costs are complex beast, in an age of scarcity, where oil is pushed aside no matter if for good or bad reasons, how costs can change? I mean: maintaining an aerial network and relevant trolleys is surely expensive, but expensive in what? In natural resources or in worked hours q and hour of vehicle mandatory stops? If it's just in worked hours/maintenance time than in the aforementioned age of scarcity such cost does not matter much. Few marginal notes: - at page 77 the graph 5-35 show a curious cost per km change in late 2008, why? Is this due to aging or to purely economical factors like supply chain changes for spare parts, safety norms changes etc? - the ability to roll and change routes without capital infrastructure set up will be king is another complex beast: on scale that's the reason many researchers try to push naval and very-short-range aviation, from flying taxis to city-to-nearby-city small scale logistics: STOL/VTOL have almost the same industrial cost (beware, industrial not price tag on sale) than modern cars and vans, they cost more in opex but new physical road/rail infra development and regular maintenance/changes cost skyrocketing high capex for an uncertain future since they demand 10+y just to be finished on scale and they need 30-50+y to be paid back enough. At city scale though maintaining a complete coverage of a municipal aerial electrical grid for vehicles especially if we ALSO open if to future other transports (like food distribution logistic till even private cars) might be sustainable. Not in today economy, but in the new world one. In the end actual cities are not sustainable already, we figure out new smaller cities that look like much to small factories with workers inside also for this issue... - with actual battery chemistry we simply can't sustain a real BEV fleet, we can't produce enough batteries for a new FIRST generation of vehicles nor we know how to recycle them to having enough resources for the next generation in just 5-8 years. BEVs can be done for a small scale of private vehicles, mostly targeting wealthy people + some "glorified golf cart" [1] for specific short range usage... [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3vny5/glorified-electric-golf-carts-for-all https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3vny5/glorified-electric-go...