3 ms·

As a 24 year old male, I’m surprised (and disappointed, internally) by how many of my female friends in college are outspoken about never wanting or having kids

As a 24 year old male, I’m surprised (and disappointed, internally) by how many of my female friends in college are outspoken about never wanting or having kids. They see little in it other than work, stress, loss of freedom, and money. I understand it’s all those things but there’s good aspects, perhaps meaning itself in raising kids as well. I think it’s related to a collapse in the belief in death-do-us-part marriage in America’s secular middle class. At the same time, those that are outspoken about these matters also always seem to lack meaning or direction in their life. It’s seems a weird inverse to me, but I guess it makes some sense too: weak sense of purpose —> low expectations for the future —> disbelief in traditional customs, like monogamy and marriage, gender roles —> “I know I don’t want kids.” [*then proceed to some casual, horrible, judgy take about kids and people who choose to have kids]. —> The belief that everyone shares or ought to share this cynicism. A lot of it has to do with my surprise that other 23-25 year olds don’t really see themselves as adults. Regardless of financial (in)dependence, no college graduate should see themselves as anything short of a fully capable adult. I wish I could snap my fingers and make everyone see this as a cause instead of a symptom of various flavors of mild- and medium-severity mental illness. Something that addresses a lack of a sense of adulthood as a root cause. I feel like I may as well be described as a natalist for my beliefs, but it honestly seems like I have an “average” perspective on this until like ten minutes ago. I know things will change for myself and my friends as we get older. I don’t want kids right this moment, but will one day - and that day is not incomprehensibly far away. This is incredibly rambly, and these are seriously my friends, their positive qualities innumerable outweigh their antinatalist takes, especially considering I’m going to be dating any of them for other reasons. Just wanted to throw this perspective out there, especially about the growing sense of common despair for the future and how that interacts with a growing sense of meaninglessness in a secular world. Just sharing my experience here. These anecdotes come from other young college grads in my cohort (not-IT though).

ModernMech 5y ago
> many of my female friends in college are outspoken about never wanting or having kids ... those that are outspoken about these matters also always seem to lack meaning or direction in their life. So you're in your early 20s and in college, and you think the people around you lack meaning and direction? I mean, first of all 90% of the 20 year olds in college I know lack meaning in their life. That's why they're in college, to find purpose and community. Secondly, the mere fact that they are in college or graduated college means they don't lack direction. They are on a path, and that path is a time-tested one that has repeatedly proven to lead to personal actualization. Also being enrolled in college I would say they have high expectations for the future, the most obvious expectation I think is they would hope to graduate with a degree and use that degree to leverage better opportunities for themselves. Third, there is a such thing as a biological clock. It starts ticking loudly for women in their late 20s in my experience. Finally, I will implore you to at least consider the political climate. For the last 70 years, abortion (which is healthcare for women) has been considered constitutionally protected and has been available and accessible for women. Now women are being told that if they get an abortion, they should face criminal penalties like incarceration. The former POTUS intoned that "There has to be some form of punishment [for women having an abortion]". Today, some women in America have to travel over 600 miles across several states to get access to abortion. States are passing laws creating bounty hunters and vigilantes to harass women and the people who help them seek access to abortion. Laws are being passed that even restrict abortion in the case of rape and incest. The Supreme Court of the United States has okayed these laws and are universally expected to completely gut Roe vs. Wade this summer. All women are paying attention to this, including your friends. The message is loud and clear, and it's changing their relationship with men and the idea of sex. Ask your friends what they think about the pending loss of their right to an abortion. See if that makes them more or less likely for them to want to have children. For the women in my life, it makes them (more) nervous about the idea of sex altogether.
- DiggyJohnson 5y ago
  I’m not in college, my peer group is 23-26, and I think that’s an important distinction. I disagree strongly with the direction of your analysis, and I think you did a whole lot more assuming than is necessary or effective. See my comment downthread for a more concise summary of my little rant. Most notably, I don’t understand how abortion relates so heavily to this discussion, because I’m clearly implying that I’m thinking about planned, not accidental pregnancies. Simply put: I’m surprised that my peers seem to have a conviction that their mindset will never change. I’m not surprised that they feel a certain way at this age and that they project this into the future.
- smegsicle 5y ago
  > "There has to be some form of punishment [for women having an abortion]". trump immediately backed down from this 'intonation', and i would be very surprised to hear about any serious legislation meant to punish women, rather than doctors, for abortion. if women are "being told they should face criminal penalties" then that is coming from fearmongering liberals and extremist protestors, not any cohesive western conservative platform.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > trump immediately backed down from this 'intonation' When someone tells you two contradictory things, it's best to look at their deeds rather than their words for their true intentions. > i would be very surprised to hear about any serious legislation meant to punish women, rather than doctors, for abortion. Punishing doctors is punishing women. Again, abortion is necessary healthcare for women, and when you punish doctors for providing constitutionally protected and lifesaving healthcare to women, you create a situation where women must either forego care (because there are no local doctors who can provide them that care) or must incur great expense to get care (I will reiterate, driving >600 miles to do what you should be able to do lawfully in your own city is a very extreme punishment for women). > not any cohesive western conservative platform It's very clear that the GOP believes that women should face criminal penalties for having an abortion, as their vast and persistent legislative efforts are clearly trending that way. Month after month they get more extreme with the kinds of bills they are introducing. The message is in the actions not the words. The actions (the kinds of laws they're passing and the putative effects they're having on their intended targets) belie the "backtracks" and give truth to the original intonation that "there has to be some form of punishment".
gus_massa 5y ago
Remember to ask your friends again in 10-15 years. People change their mind.
- DiggyJohnson 5y ago
  I worded this very poorly, because this is what I do expect to happen. I’m just surprised folks don’t expect this change to occur? Something like “I don’t think I want kids but maybe that’ll change” is tooootally reasonable, but “I’ll never have kids, and I think those that do are selfish. I can’t imagine changing my mind on this,” is more what I’m referring to.

ModernMech 5y ago

> many of my female friends in college are outspoken about never wanting or having kids ... those that are outspoken about these matters also always seem to lack meaning or direction in their life. So you're in your early 20s and in college, and you think the people around you lack meaning and direction? I mean, first of all 90% of the 20 year olds in college I know lack meaning in their life. That's why they're in college, to find purpose and community. Secondly, the mere fact that they are in college or graduated college means they don't lack direction. They are on a path, and that path is a time-tested one that has repeatedly proven to lead to personal actualization. Also being enrolled in college I would say they have high expectations for the future, the most obvious expectation I think is they would hope to graduate with a degree and use that degree to leverage better opportunities for themselves. Third, there is a such thing as a biological clock. It starts ticking loudly for women in their late 20s in my experience. Finally, I will implore you to at least consider the political climate. For the last 70 years, abortion (which is healthcare for women) has been considered constitutionally protected and has been available and accessible for women. Now women are being told that if they get an abortion, they should face criminal penalties like incarceration. The former POTUS intoned that "There has to be some form of punishment [for women having an abortion]". Today, some women in America have to travel over 600 miles across several states to get access to abortion. States are passing laws creating bounty hunters and vigilantes to harass women and the people who help them seek access to abortion. Laws are being passed that even restrict abortion in the case of rape and incest. The Supreme Court of the United States has okayed these laws and are universally expected to completely gut Roe vs. Wade this summer. All women are paying attention to this, including your friends. The message is loud and clear, and it's changing their relationship with men and the idea of sex. Ask your friends what they think about the pending loss of their right to an abortion. See if that makes them more or less likely for them to want to have children. For the women in my life, it makes them (more) nervous about the idea of sex altogether.

DiggyJohnson 5y ago
I’m not in college, my peer group is 23-26, and I think that’s an important distinction. I disagree strongly with the direction of your analysis, and I think you did a whole lot more assuming than is necessary or effective. See my comment downthread for a more concise summary of my little rant. Most notably, I don’t understand how abortion relates so heavily to this discussion, because I’m clearly implying that I’m thinking about planned, not accidental pregnancies. Simply put: I’m surprised that my peers seem to have a conviction that their mindset will never change. I’m not surprised that they feel a certain way at this age and that they project this into the future.
smegsicle 5y ago
> "There has to be some form of punishment [for women having an abortion]". trump immediately backed down from this 'intonation', and i would be very surprised to hear about any serious legislation meant to punish women, rather than doctors, for abortion. if women are "being told they should face criminal penalties" then that is coming from fearmongering liberals and extremist protestors, not any cohesive western conservative platform.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > trump immediately backed down from this 'intonation' When someone tells you two contradictory things, it's best to look at their deeds rather than their words for their true intentions. > i would be very surprised to hear about any serious legislation meant to punish women, rather than doctors, for abortion. Punishing doctors is punishing women. Again, abortion is necessary healthcare for women, and when you punish doctors for providing constitutionally protected and lifesaving healthcare to women, you create a situation where women must either forego care (because there are no local doctors who can provide them that care) or must incur great expense to get care (I will reiterate, driving >600 miles to do what you should be able to do lawfully in your own city is a very extreme punishment for women). > not any cohesive western conservative platform It's very clear that the GOP believes that women should face criminal penalties for having an abortion, as their vast and persistent legislative efforts are clearly trending that way. Month after month they get more extreme with the kinds of bills they are introducing. The message is in the actions not the words. The actions (the kinds of laws they're passing and the putative effects they're having on their intended targets) belie the "backtracks" and give truth to the original intonation that "there has to be some form of punishment".

gus_massa 5y ago

Remember to ask your friends again in 10-15 years. People change their mind.

DiggyJohnson 5y ago
I worded this very poorly, because this is what I do expect to happen. I’m just surprised folks don’t expect this change to occur? Something like “I don’t think I want kids but maybe that’ll change” is tooootally reasonable, but “I’ll never have kids, and I think those that do are selfish. I can’t imagine changing my mind on this,” is more what I’m referring to.