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This bias is a consequence of what Kahneman called “What You See Is All There Is.” It’s bad logic and ascribing signal when it’s actually projections of the obs

This bias is a consequence of what Kahneman called “What You See Is All There Is.” It’s bad logic and ascribing signal when it’s actually projections of the observer. That isn’t to say there is no effect - people might start to see themselves as more disciplined if they look sharp. “Look good, play good”, as my coach used to say.

DiggyJohnson 5y ago
I love that book, but I’m not sure Kahneman would agree that it applies here when we are evaluating not whether an individual looks sharp (imagine a salesperson on commission) but instead whether the individual+their work/domain/communication is sharp. I find that to be a very valuable signal, and I’m struggling to imagine how I could be disagree with on this.
- B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
  Well, it's fictional - the disheveled detective who always gets his culprit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo
- edmundsauto 5y ago
  I think it’s a leap to go from “this person is disciplined in their personal appearance” to “this person is disciplined in XYZ” or “this person is disciplined in general”. It’s a classic case of the halo effect. If you had an electrical issue, you wouldn’t contact your doctor because they are good at figuring things out and pretty smart. Domain specific skills and habits are just that.
epolanski 5y ago
> It’s bad logic Is it so far stretched to say that a person who is in good shape, takes proper care about his hygiene and stuff like hair/beard might be a more self disciplined and organized person compared to someone that is lazy about his hygiene, physical condition and appearance?
- shkkmo 5y ago
  That "logic" could also be reversed just as easily. Someone with poor professional skills might feel more pressure to compensate by "looking sharp". Neither is actually "logic" but just post hoc justification of bias that generalizes a subset of cases without any data on their prevalence when in reality, that prevalence is highly contextual. In my experience, some people place a high priority and gain significant pleasure from looking sharp, while others consider it a chore and would prefer to minimize the time spent on it. Thus a significant part of the "looking sharp" signal is measuring preference and priorities rather than level of successful execution. In addition, issues with hygiene are more common in people with ADHD, autism etc so if you over apply this metric you may end up excluding some very smart, neurodiverse individuals. If you see a rundown looking restraunt, you might conclude it isn't worth trying, but you'd be better off looking at how busy it is or the reviews. A rundown restraunt with a line out the door is probably gonna be better than a sharp looking restraunt with no customers, especially if they are side by side (in the same context). Beyond that, if I see a sharp restraunt and a dingy restraunt, both with lines out the door, I will pick the dingy one because I see that as signaling higher confidence that the consistent quality of their food will drive all the repeat business they want. Edit: I'd also point out that "smart looking" is intricately tied into social class status signaling in many contexts.
  - epolanski 5y ago
    > Someone with poor professional skills might feel more pressure to compensate by "looking sharp". To look sharp and fit you HAVE to be disciplined. That's a fact. Yours, is a speculation. That is a difference. Notice that I have never said that being a disciplined individual, which is a fact for who takes lots of care about himself implies a better professional, or a more self disciplined worker. That being said, imho, there is a correlation between those things. If someone has good self discipline often he can probably translate this at a place of work or study.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > to look sharp and fit you HAVE to be disciplined. That's a fact. Again, not in my experience. There are other ways to be fit than a rigorous workout scheme and diet. Some people are fit as a side effect of something they love to do. A mountain biking enthusiast doesn't have to be disciplined to be fit, just a little obsessed. Some people have obsessive body issues and their level of exercise is the result of an unhealthy lack of discipline. You are whitewashing a complex topic with your bias and stating it as an unassailable fact. I think it is easy to confuse obsession with discipline sometimes. I think the obsessed tend to outperform the disciplined in their areas of focus and the combination of the two can lead to quite incredible things. Edit: I will say that a lack of fitness can be a sign of a lack of discipline IF you know the context of the goals and priorities of that individual, but as a stand alone signal, it is meaningless without specific contexts.
kmill 5y ago
I think it's like how in sexual selection, many animals display traits that take additional energy to maintain. The theory is that this is selected for since if a potential mate is able to display these traits while still being alive and healthy, then that is some sort of proof of good genetics. If a company can put energy into looking sharp while also staying in business, that proves some sort of viability/success of the business. There seem to be a few qualities you could have to achieve this, discipline being one of them. But, even if it's discipline that's being used to look sharp, that doesn't mean it transfers to the work the business produces -- all we know is that they're still in business and are successful enough to look sharp. For all we know they could use shady practices, under-deliver, know how to protect themselves contractually, and extract wealth from large inefficient organizations.

DiggyJohnson 5y ago

I love that book, but I’m not sure Kahneman would agree that it applies here when we are evaluating not whether an individual looks sharp (imagine a salesperson on commission) but instead whether the individual+their work/domain/communication is sharp. I find that to be a very valuable signal, and I’m struggling to imagine how I could be disagree with on this.

B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
Well, it's fictional - the disheveled detective who always gets his culprit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo
edmundsauto 5y ago
I think it’s a leap to go from “this person is disciplined in their personal appearance” to “this person is disciplined in XYZ” or “this person is disciplined in general”. It’s a classic case of the halo effect. If you had an electrical issue, you wouldn’t contact your doctor because they are good at figuring things out and pretty smart. Domain specific skills and habits are just that.

epolanski 5y ago

> It’s bad logic Is it so far stretched to say that a person who is in good shape, takes proper care about his hygiene and stuff like hair/beard might be a more self disciplined and organized person compared to someone that is lazy about his hygiene, physical condition and appearance?

shkkmo 5y ago
That "logic" could also be reversed just as easily. Someone with poor professional skills might feel more pressure to compensate by "looking sharp". Neither is actually "logic" but just post hoc justification of bias that generalizes a subset of cases without any data on their prevalence when in reality, that prevalence is highly contextual. In my experience, some people place a high priority and gain significant pleasure from looking sharp, while others consider it a chore and would prefer to minimize the time spent on it. Thus a significant part of the "looking sharp" signal is measuring preference and priorities rather than level of successful execution. In addition, issues with hygiene are more common in people with ADHD, autism etc so if you over apply this metric you may end up excluding some very smart, neurodiverse individuals. If you see a rundown looking restraunt, you might conclude it isn't worth trying, but you'd be better off looking at how busy it is or the reviews. A rundown restraunt with a line out the door is probably gonna be better than a sharp looking restraunt with no customers, especially if they are side by side (in the same context). Beyond that, if I see a sharp restraunt and a dingy restraunt, both with lines out the door, I will pick the dingy one because I see that as signaling higher confidence that the consistent quality of their food will drive all the repeat business they want. Edit: I'd also point out that "smart looking" is intricately tied into social class status signaling in many contexts.
- epolanski 5y ago
  > Someone with poor professional skills might feel more pressure to compensate by "looking sharp". To look sharp and fit you HAVE to be disciplined. That's a fact. Yours, is a speculation. That is a difference. Notice that I have never said that being a disciplined individual, which is a fact for who takes lots of care about himself implies a better professional, or a more self disciplined worker. That being said, imho, there is a correlation between those things. If someone has good self discipline often he can probably translate this at a place of work or study.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > to look sharp and fit you HAVE to be disciplined. That's a fact. Again, not in my experience. There are other ways to be fit than a rigorous workout scheme and diet. Some people are fit as a side effect of something they love to do. A mountain biking enthusiast doesn't have to be disciplined to be fit, just a little obsessed. Some people have obsessive body issues and their level of exercise is the result of an unhealthy lack of discipline. You are whitewashing a complex topic with your bias and stating it as an unassailable fact. I think it is easy to confuse obsession with discipline sometimes. I think the obsessed tend to outperform the disciplined in their areas of focus and the combination of the two can lead to quite incredible things. Edit: I will say that a lack of fitness can be a sign of a lack of discipline IF you know the context of the goals and priorities of that individual, but as a stand alone signal, it is meaningless without specific contexts.

kmill 5y ago

I think it's like how in sexual selection, many animals display traits that take additional energy to maintain. The theory is that this is selected for since if a potential mate is able to display these traits while still being alive and healthy, then that is some sort of proof of good genetics. If a company can put energy into looking sharp while also staying in business, that proves some sort of viability/success of the business. There seem to be a few qualities you could have to achieve this, discipline being one of them. But, even if it's discipline that's being used to look sharp, that doesn't mean it transfers to the work the business produces -- all we know is that they're still in business and are successful enough to look sharp. For all we know they could use shady practices, under-deliver, know how to protect themselves contractually, and extract wealth from large inefficient organizations.