8 ms·

The notion that a man has some say in the decision to have a child has been frowned upon for a while. "It's the womans choice" is the moral message in fiction t

The notion that a man has some say in the decision to have a child has been frowned upon for a while. "It's the womans choice" is the moral message in fiction that touches the subject, for like 40 years plus now.

tomp 5y ago
Not just “moral message”, also law in most of the West. After ejaculation, men have no more legal right about what happens with their sperm and resulting fetuses/children.
- causality0 5y ago
  Or even before in some cases. In the United States a woman has raped a male child and then later successfully sued that boy for child support when he reached adulthood. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statut...
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "now 24 and living in Phoenix, graduated from high school, went to college and became a medical assistant. "Then two years ago, the state served him with papers demanding child support. That's how he found out he had a then-6-year-old daughter." 24-2-6-9months seems to indicate he was at least 15 when the relevant sex happened and then it would have been legally consented. Also he wants to take up fatherhood(and he never pressed charges against her), so this case is not as simple as you stated. Otherwise it is quite ridiculous and outrageous, that there are really 2 standards when it comes to sex with minors and the consequences.
    - causality0 5y ago
      I wouldn't assume the "two years" and "six years old" statements are exact measurements.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  This view is so wrong on the facts, it is dangerous in large numbers.
  - tomp 5y ago
    This isn't a view, I'm stating facts / describing reality. I personally disagree with this state of affairs. Edit: from Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft > In most jurisdictions, sperm theft is not illegal and usually has little bearing on issues like child support.
    - spacemanmatt 5y ago
      I do not think it is an accurate description of facts or legal reality. Telling people who might just believe you stuff like that can be needlessly inflammatory.
    - spacemanmatt 5y ago
      re: sperm theft is that a real social problem or a corner case?
schwartzworld 5y ago
Last I checked, you can't have a baby without unprotected sex. If you ejaculate inside a fertile woman, how do you not see that as a choice? Except in cases of men who are raped, it absolutely represents a choice on the part of the man. The fact that you can't force a woman to have an abortion (or to not have one) after the fact doesn't seem like an infringement on your rights.
- thematrixturtle 5y ago
  The failure rate of contraception in real life is quite high, and this is not even accounting for various methods of "baby trapping" (the old pin in the condom etc). If you're a well-paid professional in NYC, the negotiated market rate for an abortion is well north of $50k. https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/12/12/failed-abortion-transaction/ https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/12/12/failed-abortion...
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > negotiated market rate for an abortion is well north of $50k. Ozer reportedly offered her tens of thousands of dollars to terminate her pregnancy, amid other messages, calling her “white trash” and telling her “I f***ing hate you.” ... He reportedly made the cash payment offer through a colleague. The Post reports that the colleague told Naymark, “He’d be willing to offer a lump sum of money to you . . . I’m sure he would have no problem with 50k-75,000+.” That's a "negotiated market rate"? From your link: The friend’s purported offer of “50k-75,000+” is not consistent with attorney-handled transactions What point exactly are you trying to make here?
  - Markoff 5y ago
    please enlighten me about quite high failure rate of properly installed IUD
    - thematrixturtle 5y ago
      And just how is the man supposed to know if it's properly installed or not? Remember the GP was saying it's always the man's fault if the woman gets pregnant.
donthellbanme 5y ago
hutzlibu 5y ago
I am not sure what your point is. Is it, that a men should be able to decide, that a women shall carry a baby? Well, that used to be the idea, when women were considered objects owned by men. And yes, that idea is frowned upon in the west. Otherwise of course men today have a say in making babies. But since they cannot make a baby themself, they can only convince a female partner to make one. But no, they cannot and should not decide for the partner. Just like the female partner cannot decide to just make a baby. Unless she chooses sperm bank and artificial means.
happytoexplain 5y ago
The phrase "it's the woman's choice" in popular use is made in the implied scenario where the man wants a child. You hear it a lot because men forcing/coercing women into things has been a problem that got a lot of attention after the sexual revolution, and this case is especially dramatic since bearing a child is a particularly unfair burden for somebody who doesn't want it. If the man in the theoretical situation doesn't want a child and the woman does, then of course his opinion matters. The idea that women should be allowed to force men to have children is not, as your are implying, a problem of significant scale in popular culture or media (though, as usual with cultural/social/political wars, anything can be cherry-picked).

tomp 5y ago

Not just “moral message”, also law in most of the West. After ejaculation, men have no more legal right about what happens with their sperm and resulting fetuses/children.

causality0 5y ago
Or even before in some cases. In the United States a woman has raped a male child and then later successfully sued that boy for child support when he reached adulthood. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statut...
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "now 24 and living in Phoenix, graduated from high school, went to college and became a medical assistant. "Then two years ago, the state served him with papers demanding child support. That's how he found out he had a then-6-year-old daughter." 24-2-6-9months seems to indicate he was at least 15 when the relevant sex happened and then it would have been legally consented. Also he wants to take up fatherhood(and he never pressed charges against her), so this case is not as simple as you stated. Otherwise it is quite ridiculous and outrageous, that there are really 2 standards when it comes to sex with minors and the consequences.
  - causality0 5y ago
    I wouldn't assume the "two years" and "six years old" statements are exact measurements.
spacemanmatt 5y ago
This view is so wrong on the facts, it is dangerous in large numbers.
- tomp 5y ago
  This isn't a view, I'm stating facts / describing reality. I personally disagree with this state of affairs. Edit: from Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft > In most jurisdictions, sperm theft is not illegal and usually has little bearing on issues like child support.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    I do not think it is an accurate description of facts or legal reality. Telling people who might just believe you stuff like that can be needlessly inflammatory.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    re: sperm theft is that a real social problem or a corner case?

schwartzworld 5y ago

Last I checked, you can't have a baby without unprotected sex. If you ejaculate inside a fertile woman, how do you not see that as a choice? Except in cases of men who are raped, it absolutely represents a choice on the part of the man. The fact that you can't force a woman to have an abortion (or to not have one) after the fact doesn't seem like an infringement on your rights.

thematrixturtle 5y ago
The failure rate of contraception in real life is quite high, and this is not even accounting for various methods of "baby trapping" (the old pin in the condom etc). If you're a well-paid professional in NYC, the negotiated market rate for an abortion is well north of $50k. https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/12/12/failed-abortion-transaction/ https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/12/12/failed-abortion...
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > negotiated market rate for an abortion is well north of $50k. Ozer reportedly offered her tens of thousands of dollars to terminate her pregnancy, amid other messages, calling her “white trash” and telling her “I f***ing hate you.” ... He reportedly made the cash payment offer through a colleague. The Post reports that the colleague told Naymark, “He’d be willing to offer a lump sum of money to you . . . I’m sure he would have no problem with 50k-75,000+.” That's a "negotiated market rate"? From your link: The friend’s purported offer of “50k-75,000+” is not consistent with attorney-handled transactions What point exactly are you trying to make here?
- Markoff 5y ago
  please enlighten me about quite high failure rate of properly installed IUD
  - thematrixturtle 5y ago
    And just how is the man supposed to know if it's properly installed or not? Remember the GP was saying it's always the man's fault if the woman gets pregnant.

donthellbanme 5y ago

hutzlibu 5y ago

I am not sure what your point is. Is it, that a men should be able to decide, that a women shall carry a baby? Well, that used to be the idea, when women were considered objects owned by men. And yes, that idea is frowned upon in the west. Otherwise of course men today have a say in making babies. But since they cannot make a baby themself, they can only convince a female partner to make one. But no, they cannot and should not decide for the partner. Just like the female partner cannot decide to just make a baby. Unless she chooses sperm bank and artificial means.

happytoexplain 5y ago

The phrase "it's the woman's choice" in popular use is made in the implied scenario where the man wants a child. You hear it a lot because men forcing/coercing women into things has been a problem that got a lot of attention after the sexual revolution, and this case is especially dramatic since bearing a child is a particularly unfair burden for somebody who doesn't want it. If the man in the theoretical situation doesn't want a child and the woman does, then of course his opinion matters. The idea that women should be allowed to force men to have children is not, as your are implying, a problem of significant scale in popular culture or media (though, as usual with cultural/social/political wars, anything can be cherry-picked).