5 ms·

The thing about this sort of advice is that to a person in a subclinically depressed mindset it's not using the same language that they understand. It's preachi

by throwaway22032 5y ago

The thing about this sort of advice is that to a person in a subclinically depressed mindset it's not using the same language that they understand. It's preaching to the choir. If you feel good about yourself and you are otherwise healthy then going to the gym, eating well, studying etc are not things that feel bad. They are intrinsically motivating because they make you a better you. But if you feel bad or you are unwell then you don't give a toss, it's just dopamine fix after dopamine fix to get through today. But then even if you feel good, not everyone cares about self actualization along the same axes. And then we have limited time, money, energy, ... Life is complicated, innit.

WilTimSon 5y ago
I've had experience with this and while it's incredibly difficult to find motivation to go the gym or eat well, I found that achieving even one of these things for even a week - so two-three visits to the gym or four-five salads and veggies instead of snacks - were enough to really boost my morale. Granted, it's no "solution" for depressive mindsets, but it's a step on the right track. We just tend to have this obsession with finding an easy packaged solution, whereas any real problem requires steps upon steps.
thenerdhead 5y ago
Although I get what you're saying, I challenge that it "won't get through to certain people". I think the advice is pretty common for people in that mindset. It's littered in every best selling self-help books read by millions worldwide (Tony Robbins, Mel Robbins, lots of Robbins for some reason). It is definitely "life changing" going from a depressive state to a neutral or even positive one. But it seems most people start their self-improvement journey from depressive states they aren't aware of. Break-ups, financial ruin, tragic loss, shitty job, family issues, etc. While self-actualization is indeed different for us all, there is a common sentiment to it which is being able to realize your full potential. The only way to do that is to constantly work on improving yourself as a person. That gives you much of the newfound sense of "security" and "growth" we all strive for in life.
- sverona 5y ago
  I'd like to challenge your challenge, if I may. I'm clinically depressed. I've had suicidal ideation for about twelve years (half my life.) On the rare days when sunlight peeks through and I can see the sky, yeah, working out and taking care of myself make me feel amazing. But most of the time it's just something I do. I don't feel better afterward. There may be a shadow of a thought in the back of my head like "this is making me stronger," but that's about it. I've read an awful lot of LessWrong guides like the link about, pithily, how to extract more marginal value from your life. The problem is that before doing any of that makes sense I have to stop being so depressed, because every time I do something that's supposed to make me feel good I end up literally wanting to fucking kill myself. When I ask myself what I want out of life, the answer comes back immediately, "I want to die." Depression is this huge boulder that has been keeping me from getting on with my life for years now, and I know this but I'm not strong enough to move it myself. The best I can do is make life in the cave busy. Before the inevitable replies pour in, I am doing every last thing I physically can about this. I run. I lift. I'm vegetarian and I eat a pretty healthy diet. I'm medicated. I'm in therapy. When I try meditation, it tends to bring me back to the feelings of wanting to die, and that's too much for me to sit with. I'm pursuing ketamine because I'm sick of living like this. I hope it helps me move the boulder.
  - abnry 5y ago
    That's rough. Hope things improve for you. Hope you can crack the code.
  - dazc 5y ago
    > Before the inevitable replies pour in... Nothing worse than helpful advice when you're not in a good state of mind, I agree. Nonetheless, keep going and I hope that one day you can put all this behind you.
  - thenerdhead 5y ago
    I hear you. Just know that you are enough. You always will be. I know what you're going through. Also struggled for my whole life with these issues and been through my own dark night of the soul. I've found the ancient philosophies of buddhism, taoism, stoicism(this one most), and many others to help me move this boulder all the way up the hill and not constantly failing like Sisyphus. Part of you does die per-say, you're not the same person as you were previously. People refer to that as an awakening, a self-realization, but I see it as your ego dying in the process. Very common if you think about it from a Greek myth perspective of a hero's journey or even part of Star Wars where the Padawan becomes the Jedi Master. I don't know if this happens to everyone in life nor will everyone realize it, but finding meaning in life for me meant reading tons of books and getting clarity of what was missing in my life after better understanding self-actualization from many angles. After-all it is the big question we all want an answer to. I think I found that, but I still do suffer through stormy weather here and there and I remind myself that I've gotten through it before, I'll get through it again. I've been through years of depression, and now they are more like weeks if not days. Highly recommend reasons to stay alive by Matt Haig and man's search for meaning by Viktor Frankl if you haven't read them already. Wishing you the best and do know that you are enough.
otikik 5y ago
Yeah this is good advice, but it isn’t good enough for depressed people. Depending on the person the regular “long” or “medium” paths for dopamine to get released might be simply not available. So, under depression, you can fight the uphill battle, finish that difficult task …and feel nothing at all. And then feel bad about not feeling good. I don’t think there’s a single treatment to fix this for everyone, the solution needs to be adapted. In my case other happiness pathways and chemicals besides “task oriented satisfaction” were still open. (Sport felt good. Spending time with family felt good. Time in nature felt good. Healthy food felt good) So I “forced” myself to do a bunch of that. And that gradually unblocked my brain a little, and with some counselling and expectation management, I started feeling good about “doing things”. Still a work in progress.
- tyrfing 5y ago
  > And then feel bad about not feeling good. This is the sort of thought pattern that is very possible to change, and for the reader unsure how, I'd highly recommend looking into CBT and similar therapies.
- PebblesRox 5y ago
  One metaphor I used to describe my depression was being stuck at the bottom of a hill on a rollercoaster with too much friction. I could push and push and push my way to the top of one hill, but I'd just come to a halt again at the bottom of the next hill. Not only did it take a lot more effort than usual to get moving on things, the effort I did put in did not result in any long-term momentum, making it really difficult to find motivation to keep trying.
michaericalribo 5y ago
The language is a bit glib / inappropriate for something like depression. But behavioral training like this (I commented elsewhere abt it) can be successful even for people experiencing acute, clinical mental health problems. Those techniques aren’t something you’ll learn from an anti procrastination blog, but in the broader context it’s a very sound approach
- agumonkey 5y ago
  A few things I've noticed is: - personal level fixes: don't dwell in your own darkness, try to seize the few blinking moments of energy and do something with it, anything. It kinda revives that side of your mind. - social level fixes: the first point had low yields for me, lots of efforts, small returns, sometimes a good day and back to walking on a fine line. But when I got back to work life, even shitty places, there was like a big wave of relief sipping in my system. I theorize that as being connected with and in the same flow as others. Suddenly your brain is exposed to others stimuli that are very very powerful (sleep, diet, .. all realigned overnight without even thinking about it)
closedloop129 5y ago
Is it self actualization if you do it for the dopamine fix?

WilTimSon 5y ago

I've had experience with this and while it's incredibly difficult to find motivation to go the gym or eat well, I found that achieving even one of these things for even a week - so two-three visits to the gym or four-five salads and veggies instead of snacks - were enough to really boost my morale. Granted, it's no "solution" for depressive mindsets, but it's a step on the right track. We just tend to have this obsession with finding an easy packaged solution, whereas any real problem requires steps upon steps.

thenerdhead 5y ago

Although I get what you're saying, I challenge that it "won't get through to certain people". I think the advice is pretty common for people in that mindset. It's littered in every best selling self-help books read by millions worldwide (Tony Robbins, Mel Robbins, lots of Robbins for some reason). It is definitely "life changing" going from a depressive state to a neutral or even positive one. But it seems most people start their self-improvement journey from depressive states they aren't aware of. Break-ups, financial ruin, tragic loss, shitty job, family issues, etc. While self-actualization is indeed different for us all, there is a common sentiment to it which is being able to realize your full potential. The only way to do that is to constantly work on improving yourself as a person. That gives you much of the newfound sense of "security" and "growth" we all strive for in life.

sverona 5y ago
I'd like to challenge your challenge, if I may. I'm clinically depressed. I've had suicidal ideation for about twelve years (half my life.) On the rare days when sunlight peeks through and I can see the sky, yeah, working out and taking care of myself make me feel amazing. But most of the time it's just something I do. I don't feel better afterward. There may be a shadow of a thought in the back of my head like "this is making me stronger," but that's about it. I've read an awful lot of LessWrong guides like the link about, pithily, how to extract more marginal value from your life. The problem is that before doing any of that makes sense I have to stop being so depressed, because every time I do something that's supposed to make me feel good I end up literally wanting to fucking kill myself. When I ask myself what I want out of life, the answer comes back immediately, "I want to die." Depression is this huge boulder that has been keeping me from getting on with my life for years now, and I know this but I'm not strong enough to move it myself. The best I can do is make life in the cave busy. Before the inevitable replies pour in, I am doing every last thing I physically can about this. I run. I lift. I'm vegetarian and I eat a pretty healthy diet. I'm medicated. I'm in therapy. When I try meditation, it tends to bring me back to the feelings of wanting to die, and that's too much for me to sit with. I'm pursuing ketamine because I'm sick of living like this. I hope it helps me move the boulder.
- abnry 5y ago
  That's rough. Hope things improve for you. Hope you can crack the code.
- dazc 5y ago
  > Before the inevitable replies pour in... Nothing worse than helpful advice when you're not in a good state of mind, I agree. Nonetheless, keep going and I hope that one day you can put all this behind you.
- thenerdhead 5y ago
  I hear you. Just know that you are enough. You always will be. I know what you're going through. Also struggled for my whole life with these issues and been through my own dark night of the soul. I've found the ancient philosophies of buddhism, taoism, stoicism(this one most), and many others to help me move this boulder all the way up the hill and not constantly failing like Sisyphus. Part of you does die per-say, you're not the same person as you were previously. People refer to that as an awakening, a self-realization, but I see it as your ego dying in the process. Very common if you think about it from a Greek myth perspective of a hero's journey or even part of Star Wars where the Padawan becomes the Jedi Master. I don't know if this happens to everyone in life nor will everyone realize it, but finding meaning in life for me meant reading tons of books and getting clarity of what was missing in my life after better understanding self-actualization from many angles. After-all it is the big question we all want an answer to. I think I found that, but I still do suffer through stormy weather here and there and I remind myself that I've gotten through it before, I'll get through it again. I've been through years of depression, and now they are more like weeks if not days. Highly recommend reasons to stay alive by Matt Haig and man's search for meaning by Viktor Frankl if you haven't read them already. Wishing you the best and do know that you are enough.

otikik 5y ago

Yeah this is good advice, but it isn’t good enough for depressed people. Depending on the person the regular “long” or “medium” paths for dopamine to get released might be simply not available. So, under depression, you can fight the uphill battle, finish that difficult task …and feel nothing at all. And then feel bad about not feeling good. I don’t think there’s a single treatment to fix this for everyone, the solution needs to be adapted. In my case other happiness pathways and chemicals besides “task oriented satisfaction” were still open. (Sport felt good. Spending time with family felt good. Time in nature felt good. Healthy food felt good) So I “forced” myself to do a bunch of that. And that gradually unblocked my brain a little, and with some counselling and expectation management, I started feeling good about “doing things”. Still a work in progress.

tyrfing 5y ago
> And then feel bad about not feeling good. This is the sort of thought pattern that is very possible to change, and for the reader unsure how, I'd highly recommend looking into CBT and similar therapies.
PebblesRox 5y ago
One metaphor I used to describe my depression was being stuck at the bottom of a hill on a rollercoaster with too much friction. I could push and push and push my way to the top of one hill, but I'd just come to a halt again at the bottom of the next hill. Not only did it take a lot more effort than usual to get moving on things, the effort I did put in did not result in any long-term momentum, making it really difficult to find motivation to keep trying.

michaericalribo 5y ago

The language is a bit glib / inappropriate for something like depression. But behavioral training like this (I commented elsewhere abt it) can be successful even for people experiencing acute, clinical mental health problems. Those techniques aren’t something you’ll learn from an anti procrastination blog, but in the broader context it’s a very sound approach

agumonkey 5y ago
A few things I've noticed is: - personal level fixes: don't dwell in your own darkness, try to seize the few blinking moments of energy and do something with it, anything. It kinda revives that side of your mind. - social level fixes: the first point had low yields for me, lots of efforts, small returns, sometimes a good day and back to walking on a fine line. But when I got back to work life, even shitty places, there was like a big wave of relief sipping in my system. I theorize that as being connected with and in the same flow as others. Suddenly your brain is exposed to others stimuli that are very very powerful (sleep, diet, .. all realigned overnight without even thinking about it)

closedloop129 5y ago

Is it self actualization if you do it for the dopamine fix?