5 ms·

You probably heard about the quirks in the French numerical system. For example, 99 is translated "quatre-vingt-dix-neuf" which is literally "four twenty ten ni

by Adrig 4y ago

You probably heard about the quirks in the French numerical system. For example, 99 is translated "quatre-vingt-dix-neuf" which is literally "four twenty ten nine". This is a legacy of the base 20 numerical system used by the Celtics thousands of years ago before the modern Romance language drove it out. The hybridization with our current base 10 system came with the Roman conquest of the Gaul. Another example of the base 20 in use is the Quinze-Vingts National Ophthalmology Hospital in Paris, where Quinze-Vingts (fifteen twenties) refers to the original capacity of 15*20 = 300 beds available when built in the Middle Ages.

MaanuAir 4y ago
Thanks for this! As a French, I always wondered why this oddity. That should also be introduced when teachers explain hexadecimal :-)
- picklesman 4y ago
  Me too! Btw, in the spirit of the title of this thread, in English you would say "as a French person". In the past, "Frenchman" was used but it's understandably out of favour these days. "French" can be used as an adjective but not a noun in this context. It's a very common error, I suppose since "français" can be used as an adjective or a noun en français :)
  - euroderf 4y ago
    And don't forget french as a verb! -said every high school guy ever
    - picklesman 4y ago
      Ha! Indeed! In fact in informal Quebecois French, it's also used as a verb, with the same meaning as in English. As in "J'ai Frenché ma blonde" --> "I Frenched my girlfriend"
  - causality0 4y ago
    That is wrong. The demonym for a person from France is "French". It only sounds wrong to an English ear because we're so used to calling them Frenchmen, but it's chauvinism on our part, not a linguistic mistake on theirs.
wonderbore 4y ago
Surely they the French could figure out that "neuf-dix-neuf" could work as well. I'm learning some South East Asian languages and the simplicity is astounding. Who needs "dix" when "dua dua" works just as well? (Indonesia)
- Adrig 4y ago
  Some French speaking countries use a more logic term for higher numbers. In Belgium and Switzerland 99 would be nonante-neuf which is ninety-nine. My uneducated guess is that at the time, it was easier to keep the base 20 to visualize a higher number. Just like we say "a few dozen eggs" to get an overall sense of the volume, it made more sense to keep it that way instead of a more arithmetic approach. Not sure why it never evolved, tho.
  - dorchadas 4y ago
    > a more logic term Logical according to whom? Why is base 10 more logical than any of the other bases? I'd argue it's not, it's simply that it's what we're used to so we think it's more logical.
    - Adrig 4y ago
      You're right, “coherent” would be more appropriate here
    - wonderbore 4y ago
      The logical term is one that conceives the best amount of information with the least amount of phonemes. 4 20 10 9 isn’t it.
      - dorchadas 4y ago
        I don't agree with that use of 'logical'. That would, if anything, be 'efficient'. But languages aren't efficient; in fact, there's actually some evidence to the opposite - that languages have built in redundancy to make it easier to pick back up a conversation if part of a sentence is missed. This has been proposed as part of the origin from noun classes. But I was more going on to the fact that 'base 10' is somehow more logical than any other base as a chosen one for natural languages. I see no reason why that is so.
dorchadas 4y ago
Yep! And, at least until the 'standardization' of Irish by a bunch of non-native speakers, modern Irish still used a base-20 system. It's actually still in use by a lot of native speakers in the Gaeltacht areas, though it's dying out as it wasn't included in the standard because it was 'too hard' (and, the cynic side of me would say, too different from English). It's a shame, but it's so nice to use and I try to use it whenever I speak Irish as it's part of the distinctly non-English heritage that is being lost in the language as it basically becomes coded English thanks to poor L2 learners. There's also all sorts of languages that have non-base 10 counting systems. Some use 3, some use 12 and some have even more exotic ones. One in Papua New Guinea even originally has a base-27 counting system!
nprateem 4y ago
A lot of French people are very materialistic. They're obsessed with Monet. I thank you. I'm here all week...
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Famous english language example: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/four_score_and_seven_years_ago https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/four_score_and_seven_years_... Originally from literal score in wood made as a tally mark when 20 items were counted. Plus, dozens (and gross). And base 60 becoming standard for time and degrees of a circle. Minute (unit of time) comes from "minute (smaller part)", and second from second minute (small part of the small part).
heikkilevanto 4y ago
The Danish language still has remains of this. 60 is 'tres', from three 20's. 80 is 'firs' from four 20's. The odd tens are even weirder, since they count upwards, so 50 is 'halftreds', which is half of the third 20; 70 is 'halffirs'; and 90 is 'halffems', four whole and a half of the fifth 20. But 100 is 'hundred', so 'fems' alone is never used. Also, for larger numbers, the digit order get weird: 123 is hundredogtreogtyve, one hundred and three and twenty.
deleted 4y ago
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by Adrig 4y ago

MaanuAir 4y ago

Thanks for this! As a French, I always wondered why this oddity. That should also be introduced when teachers explain hexadecimal :-)

picklesman 4y ago
Me too! Btw, in the spirit of the title of this thread, in English you would say "as a French person". In the past, "Frenchman" was used but it's understandably out of favour these days. "French" can be used as an adjective but not a noun in this context. It's a very common error, I suppose since "français" can be used as an adjective or a noun en français :)
- euroderf 4y ago
  And don't forget french as a verb! -said every high school guy ever
  - picklesman 4y ago
    Ha! Indeed! In fact in informal Quebecois French, it's also used as a verb, with the same meaning as in English. As in "J'ai Frenché ma blonde" --> "I Frenched my girlfriend"
- causality0 4y ago
  That is wrong. The demonym for a person from France is "French". It only sounds wrong to an English ear because we're so used to calling them Frenchmen, but it's chauvinism on our part, not a linguistic mistake on theirs.

wonderbore 4y ago

Surely they the French could figure out that "neuf-dix-neuf" could work as well. I'm learning some South East Asian languages and the simplicity is astounding. Who needs "dix" when "dua dua" works just as well? (Indonesia)

Adrig 4y ago
Some French speaking countries use a more logic term for higher numbers. In Belgium and Switzerland 99 would be nonante-neuf which is ninety-nine. My uneducated guess is that at the time, it was easier to keep the base 20 to visualize a higher number. Just like we say "a few dozen eggs" to get an overall sense of the volume, it made more sense to keep it that way instead of a more arithmetic approach. Not sure why it never evolved, tho.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  > a more logic term Logical according to whom? Why is base 10 more logical than any of the other bases? I'd argue it's not, it's simply that it's what we're used to so we think it's more logical.
  - Adrig 4y ago
    You're right, “coherent” would be more appropriate here
  - wonderbore 4y ago
    The logical term is one that conceives the best amount of information with the least amount of phonemes. 4 20 10 9 isn’t it.
    - dorchadas 4y ago
      I don't agree with that use of 'logical'. That would, if anything, be 'efficient'. But languages aren't efficient; in fact, there's actually some evidence to the opposite - that languages have built in redundancy to make it easier to pick back up a conversation if part of a sentence is missed. This has been proposed as part of the origin from noun classes. But I was more going on to the fact that 'base 10' is somehow more logical than any other base as a chosen one for natural languages. I see no reason why that is so.

dorchadas 4y ago

Yep! And, at least until the 'standardization' of Irish by a bunch of non-native speakers, modern Irish still used a base-20 system. It's actually still in use by a lot of native speakers in the Gaeltacht areas, though it's dying out as it wasn't included in the standard because it was 'too hard' (and, the cynic side of me would say, too different from English). It's a shame, but it's so nice to use and I try to use it whenever I speak Irish as it's part of the distinctly non-English heritage that is being lost in the language as it basically becomes coded English thanks to poor L2 learners. There's also all sorts of languages that have non-base 10 counting systems. Some use 3, some use 12 and some have even more exotic ones. One in Papua New Guinea even originally has a base-27 counting system!

nprateem 4y ago

A lot of French people are very materialistic. They're obsessed with Monet. I thank you. I'm here all week...

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Famous english language example: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/four_score_and_seven_years_ago https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/four_score_and_seven_years_... Originally from literal score in wood made as a tally mark when 20 items were counted. Plus, dozens (and gross). And base 60 becoming standard for time and degrees of a circle. Minute (unit of time) comes from "minute (smaller part)", and second from second minute (small part of the small part).

heikkilevanto 4y ago

The Danish language still has remains of this. 60 is 'tres', from three 20's. 80 is 'firs' from four 20's. The odd tens are even weirder, since they count upwards, so 50 is 'halftreds', which is half of the third 20; 70 is 'halffirs'; and 90 is 'halffems', four whole and a half of the fifth 20. But 100 is 'hundred', so 'fems' alone is never used. Also, for larger numbers, the digit order get weird: 123 is hundredogtreogtyve, one hundred and three and twenty.

deleted 4y ago

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