11 ms·
Paris suspends electric bus fleet after two fires
- emteycz 4y agoDon't let this make you think this is a general feature of electric buses. There is an electric bus fleet (at least 20 buses, probably more) in Hradec Kralove, CZ for 5+ years now and it has never caught fire - and it's always the best bus ride I ever had, and it's also much better for the city environment (I mean loudness and smell)...
- jfoster 4y agoHere's an article (+video) about a non-electric bus that caught fire. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-12/cctv-captures-sydney-bus-fire-on-parramatta-road-glebe/13051418 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-12/cctv-captures-sydney-...
- the_mitsuhiko 4y agoMore importantly buses catch on fire in Rome regularly and they are not electric.
- ranger_danger 4y agoAll motorized vehicles can catch fire.
- legulere 4y agoI guess you could design trams or electric trains that cannot catch fire. Without fuel and batteries you do not need to have that much flammable things on board.
- rzzzt 4y agoPlastic trim, seat and seat covers, liners, floors are all flammable, insulation on wiring, lots of stuff. An all-stainless steel interior would be very amusing, though.
- briandear 4y agoWhile true, what causes the fires? That’s important. Non-electric vehicle fires are most often caused by external causes, not something inherent in the design or during normal operation.
- sjg007 4y agoCooling system breaks down. Gas drips onto hot exhaust.
- 1-6 4y agoWhat varies is the rate of thermal runaway.
- Glawen 4y agoExcept that it is next to impossible to stop a fully charged battery fire. The most efficient way is to throw the vehicle in a pool of water. But even if you manage this feat, the battery can catch fire again once remove from water.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- boppo1 4y ago'Bout the same with a gasoline tank, no?
- maxerickson 4y agoYou can smother a fuel fire, a lithium ion battery fire will continue without oxygen. With large batteries, once they heat up to the point where they are burning it's tough to cool them back down enough to extinguish the fire.
- maxerickson 4y agoIt's likely enough these buses were in service for close to 5 years without a fire, from 2016: https://insideevs.com/news/327483/bollore-introduces-12-meter-electric-buses-with-lmp-batteries/ https://insideevs.com/news/327483/bollore-introduces-12-mete... Pulling them out of service while they try to figure out the cause of the fires isn't unreasonable.
- mlok 4y agoHere is a video of the fire : https://www.leparisien.fr/video/video-bus-en-feu-a-paris-regardez-les-images-du-debut-de-lincendie-du-vehicule-de-la-ratp-29-04-2022-KJZAIZDLUBCUXPCHKWBSULAUVM.php https://www.leparisien.fr/video/video-bus-en-feu-a-paris-reg...
- a9h74j 4y agoComparably intense, here is a video of an electric bus fire in India: http://www.jimstoneindia.com/pagesq22022/page2v.html http://www.jimstoneindia.com/pagesq22022/page2v.html
- tromp 4y ago> the company says the buses are "fitted with a new generation of batteries... with high energy density and optimal safety" spread around the roof and rear of the vehicle. Placing batteries in the floor makes perfect sense for lowering the centre of gravity; why would you want to spread them to the roof (which is where the video shows the fire erupting) ?
- wcoenen 4y agoThe floor of the bus needs to be as low as possible to make it easier for elderly or otherwise disabled people to get on and off.
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoThat's why kneeling busses exist. Are EV busses not equipped with that feature?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- iggldiggl 4y agoKneeling solves the problem that even a low-floor bus still has a floor height of around 30 cm. Due to a need to maintain sufficient ground clearance and the ability to sweep over regular height kerbstones (up to 20 cm), you can't get much lower than that, whereas conversely you also can't really raise the kerb at regular bus stops that high (i.e. to 30 cm or higher). Kneeling gets you down to a floor height of about 22 - 24 cm, where level boarding with a 22 cm high kerbstone is just about possible, though still subject to not insignifcant requirements where and how the bus stop exactly can be placed in terms of road geometry. So the basic gist is that kneeling doesn't absolve you from the requirement of getting the floor of the bus as low as reasonably practicable in the first place, and you need both if you want to achieve anything resembling level boarding at all.
- wcoenen 4y agoThe active suspension for kneeling is actually also used in EV buses to compensate for the high center of gravity. See this video about the Mercedes eCitaro[1] for some visuals and technical information. [1] https://youtu.be/Om3uVW4lskE?t=327 https://youtu.be/Om3uVW4lskE?t=327
- Markoff 4y agoin Prague they recently bought 14 new electric Skoda buses (Czech/Turkish production), introduced them with big media attention into operation just this year and after few weeks they are ALL out of operation, because apparently someone designing them thought he can just use regular bus frame and put 3 tons of batteries on the roof without strengthening the frame, but while you find dozens articles about amazing new electric buses being introduced you will have trouble to find articles about them being taken out of operation few weeks later, it's not so catchy for media/politicians as amazing new electric buses https://zdopravy.cz/mimo-provoz-dpp-musel-odstavit-vsech-14-cesko-tureckych-elektrobusu-od-skody-109259/ https://zdopravy.cz/mimo-provoz-dpp-musel-odstavit-vsech-14-...
- maxerickson 4y agoThe article you link states that the defect is in the chassis leveling control software and that it will be corrected, it doesn't talk about the frame strength. So the software isn't configured for the way the mass is distributed on the bus vs a strength failure.
- Markoff 4y agoAs I said: "As with the previous shutdown, they are not the reason for a fault in the electrical part, but mechanical. They relate to the quality of the body and chassis assembled in Turkey at the Škoda Temsa sister plant." So no software BS you wanna believe from some cluless MSM sources and DPP propaganda. Truth in the end finds the way... https://zdopravy.cz/elektrobusy-skody-opet-nejezdi-kvuli-zavadam-dpp-musi-nasazovat-dieselove-autobusy-113713/ https://zdopravy.cz/elektrobusy-skody-opet-nejezdi-kvuli-zav...
- ageitgey 4y agoDon't take this as an indictment of all electric buses. London has over 500 electric buses (out of 9,000). A lot of the buses in my neighborhood are the new electric double-decker ones and it's extremely nice. They are quieter, run smoother, don't polute the air, and have cool features like USB charging at every seat. It is like riding in a Tesla - just an obviously better bus experience. It will just take some time to get all the tech worked out everywhere as all these buses are custom spec and not mass produced models yet, but we will get there. This page has good info but doesn't include the newest batch of buses yet: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_buses_in_London https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_buses_in_London
- sjg007 4y agoThis is just great! Now they need electric taxis. Hopefully the end of the black snot!
- breakfastduck 4y agoWhere I live (UK town) our biggest local taxi firm has an app and an entirely electric fleet. So we're getting there!
- gkop 4y agoWould you say more about the connection between black snot and ICE taxis? The reason I ask is that I was under the impression people commonly get black snot from the the tube (eg. https://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/16jjgt/london_why_do_i_have_black_snot_when_i_visit_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/16jjgt/london_why_d... ).
- nathankleyn 4y agoThanks to the ULEZ (ultra-low emission zone) in London, this is very much already happening — anecdotally (because I can't find any easy numbers right now, everything I can find is from 2020) a huge number of the private and public taxis in London are now hybrid or full electric. Apparently there are already 5k TX electric taxis out there, which is a good start: https://levc.com/levc-celebrates-sale-of-5000th-tx-electric-taxi-in-london/ https://levc.com/levc-celebrates-sale-of-5000th-tx-electric-... https://levc.com/tx-taxi/overview/ https://levc.com/tx-taxi/overview/
- neuronic 4y agoThe city of Hamburg has changed a large portion of its fleet to electric and I love it. They are quite, they don't stink and in the last 5 years there have been no major incidents. Just like all technology, there may be some fault in the busses used in Paris and until investigation is complete they should be suspended. Battery fires are a general problem that needs a better solution but that doesn't chip on the rest of the benefits.
- punnerud 4y ago"By 2023, almost all buses in Oslo [Norway] will be electric": https://norwaytoday.info/news/by-2023-almost-all-buses-in-oslo-will-be-electric/ https://norwaytoday.info/news/by-2023-almost-all-buses-in-os...
- hemreldop 4y agoThe Scandinavians are doing a good job of being ahead of us environmentally. Probably only behind China in electric bus adoption.
- emptysongglass 4y agoThey are all made by Chinese companies, at least in Denmark, which makes me sad. Whatever you think of China, and my politics on the subject are obvious, my biggest reservation isn't that they are produced by an authoritarian regime but that Europe's own carmaking industry wasn't tapped. Over the long-term, this weakens our domestic manufacturing capacity and our political negotiation posture, which should be stunningly obvious by the example of the US yet once again the EU has demonstrated optics only for the short-term (see Germany's near-total dependence on Russian gas).
- ComradePhil 4y agoIt seems they had a fire recently too: https://youtu.be/ER4s2LLod4s https://youtu.be/ER4s2LLod4s
- kkfx 4y agoIn the past we have had electric bus with electricity coming from an aerial network, surely they have some limits, but they are the sole logic design for a city. A small battery just to emergency maneuver but nothing more. It's FAR cheaper and it's already proved they can last 50+ years without much maintenance. Batteries are meaningful for cars and trucks waiting for some aerial electrical network like starting from highways, so again we need smaller batteries just to being able to travel on 100Km (~60+miles) ranges.
- goodpoint 4y agoEven better: trams and light rail. Smoother ride and no particulate from tyres.
- plater 4y agoElectric wire bus is better than tram as it does not require expensive tracks. It is also much easier to change the route. The tracks also create a lot of noise and vibration that gets into nearby buildings. Tracks are also dangerous for bicycles, and slippery for cars and trams. There might be benefits with trams, but I do not know what.
- goodpoint 4y ago> expensive tracks Trams and trains are incredibly energy efficient even with heavy loads because of that. In the long term their TCO wins. > Tracks are also dangerous for bicycles, and slippery for cars and trams Not really. Besides, bicycles should have their lanes anyways.
- Drunk_Engineer 4y agoThe main benefit of trams is that multiple cars can be coupled together.
- frosted-flakes 4y agoAnd comfort. Streetcars on rails are so smooooth, compared to buses where it's always a bumpy ride.
- leke 4y agoIf I was a competitor, I would look for ways to sabotage the idea of electric vehicles. If I can think of it, I'm guessing other people are thinking it too. Maybe even doing it, like having buss batteries catch fire.
- throw93232 4y agoElectric buses are around in many cities for 100 years, they usually do not catch fire.
- epistasis 4y agoLarge lithium ion batteries are new, however.
- DoingIsLearning 4y agoTFL has been running all-electric bus routes in several areas of London since at least 2014 with no issues. All-electric lithium pack buses are +10 year old tech. Nothing about this is experimental. This is probably more likely an OEM fuck-up or whoever was contracted by the city of Paris to supply these buses.
- epistasis 4y agoIn the context of 100 years of electric buses, 10 years is still quite new. Agreed that this is an error on the manufacturer. It's actually really hard to get design and manufacturing quality to such a high degree to prevent one of the many many many cells from shorting and causing a fire. The battery manufacturers that have this figured out have built a really great wall for themselves, which is probably why we won't see many new large battery manufacturers from here on out.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago> In the context of 100 years of electric buses, 10 years is still quite new. No, If we were talking about the effects of some Tech in Human health I would agree with this sort of cautionary principle. In the context of electronics, lithium batteries are a 46BN dollar market. Modern manufacturing is producing billions of assemblies and power electronics with well known quality assurance, failure-modes, MTTF, etc. In the context of modern manufacturing processes and volume 10 years is an eternity.
- jeffbee 4y agoI was on a bus that caught fire but it was a diesel so it didn't make the papers. It was one of SF Muni's trolley lines up a ludicrously steep hill, which had been temporarily substituted with diesel coaches for a day because of a detour. The coach was crush-loaded in Chinatown as is typical and it was grinding up the hill at a walking pace with the engine roaring at wide-open throttle when it suddenly exploded in a fireball, probably based on my guesswork a blown gasket followed by ignition of a cloud of oil and fuel. In my current town we have a fleet of hydrogen fuel cell coaches and their potential explosive nature does not concern me.
- gregoriol 4y agoParis is experimenting with a few brands/models of electric buses right now, and it's the same brand/model that caught fire two times. That is quite a lot, but it's only this brand/model that is being suspended, not all electric buses. I don't know if this brand/model is used elsewhere, but it's a french manufacturer that doesn't have a very long record on making buses. They have made quite some of electric cars, without fires, even though they failed to get customers on them. I would give them a chance to check and fix: it's still a new tech.
- pvaldes 4y agoThe most important part would be to know who or how started the fire that is unstoppable after. Sadly we will realize that electric is another hazard in urban warfare and incompatible with organized crime.