8 ms·

For the piano - I think it's perfectly reasonable to end the lease if the tenant violates the terms of the agreement. The owner may want the piano to remain un

For the piano - I think it's perfectly reasonable to end the lease if the tenant violates the terms of the agreement. The owner may want the piano to remain undisturbed for sentimental reasons, personal belief, or playing the piano might degrade it. The question of how the owner knows the piano was played may be a separate wrong doing (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on the piano or tenant) but it shouldn't change the arrangement or consequences of violating it. For the doctor, assuming the doctor intentionally lied to his patient and this wasn't just a coincidental mistake, then I would say the doctor is guilty of murder by way of the felony murder rule. My logic being that tricking someone into believing they have a terminal disease constitutes (or should constitute) felony fraud. A person dying (by way of suicide) as a consequence of your felony means the felony murder rule applies and you are responsible for the death that results as a consequence of your felony.

dylan604 5y ago
> (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on the piano or tenant) Grabbing the wheel and jerking hard left... If the owner installs camera/microphones to check the piano status, that would be very creepy and leaning into the spying realm. If the owner installed sensors on the keys/hammers/strings/etc to detect movement, then I think I'd be okay with that. Those sensors would not know that you like to do naked yoga or pick your nose for 20 solid minutes every morning while still "protecting" the owner's wishes. Now, I'm trying to really think of if that's also invasive or if I'm accepting it for the sake of the derailed argument.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  Supposing the owner installed really invasive spying tools - the cameras and microphones, and used those to discover the tenant played the piano. Then, I think the owner would be guilty of whatever invasion of privacy law or tort is relevant, but the tenant would still be in breach of the contract. It would be right to punish the owner and tenant for their respective misdeeds, not say that because the owner did bad the bad action of the tenant should be forgiven or ignored.
  - guythedudebro 5y ago
    I think the law says otherwise? Evidence collected illegally is (usually?) not valid. Regardless, I could imagine it might incentivize spying otherwise.
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      It's not valid for the state to collect evidence illegally. If it was then it would make sense to have any laws constraining how the state could gather evidence. In this case it's not the state that's spying, it's the landlord, and the landlord is constrained by the punishments for violating the law against spying. A slightly different spin on it, if the landlord witnessed a murder while illegally spying on his piano should his recording or testimony be admissible in court? I would say yes though again the landlord should face whatever spying penalties apply.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > I think the law says otherwise? Evidence collected illegally is (usually?) not valid. Evidence collected by the state in violation of Constitutional protections relating to search and seizure rights of the defendant is generally (with, however, ever-widening exceptions) inadmissible in criminal trials. Otherwise, illegally-obtained may or may not be permitted; it quite often is, though presenting it opens one up to charges relating to the illegal act involved in gathering it.
  - salgernon 5y ago
    What if the piano had a piece of tamper tape and the landlord saw it the next time he was doing work for the tenant. The students thought it was fishy, but there was no time line associated. (Or for that matter, the tenant may have gotten drunk and spouted off about it in the biergarten.)
narag 5y ago
The doctor was found guilty of murder, because he had overwhelming control of the situation. No idea what "felony murder rule" is but if it's in the anglo-saxon tradition, I doubt it's applicable. I can't remember what happened with the piano. IIRC, both cases happened in Germany and the piano one was long ago so cameras and mics were not a possibility then. Anyway the legal foundation in play there was if there's somehow a legitimate interest in the clause, not just a whim.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  The felony murder rule is, if you commit a felony, and a person dies as a result of your crime, then you are guilty of murder. The classic example is the getaway driver in a bank robbery. If the bank robbers go in and shoot the security guard, a clerk or two, and a customer, and all you do as the getaway driver is drive the robbers away from the crime, you will still go to jail for murder even though you had nothing to do with pulling any triggers and may not have expected or wanted anyone to die. A less intuitive consequence of this is, if you are a bank robber, and the security guard shoots your fellow robber, and the other robber dies, then you are also guilty of murder because your felony (robbing the bank) led to the death of the other robber.
  - narag 5y ago
    Yeah, I don't see that last thing working in my country. "Criminal organization" is a crime in itself so it's a different tool to apply tougher penalties. But, apart from that, the complicity rules have more strict requirements.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > "Criminal organization" is a crime in itself so it's a different tool to apply tougher penalties. This is also true in the United States, where it's called "racketeering".

dylan604 5y ago

> (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on the piano or tenant) Grabbing the wheel and jerking hard left... If the owner installs camera/microphones to check the piano status, that would be very creepy and leaning into the spying realm. If the owner installed sensors on the keys/hammers/strings/etc to detect movement, then I think I'd be okay with that. Those sensors would not know that you like to do naked yoga or pick your nose for 20 solid minutes every morning while still "protecting" the owner's wishes. Now, I'm trying to really think of if that's also invasive or if I'm accepting it for the sake of the derailed argument.

ALittleLight 5y ago
Supposing the owner installed really invasive spying tools - the cameras and microphones, and used those to discover the tenant played the piano. Then, I think the owner would be guilty of whatever invasion of privacy law or tort is relevant, but the tenant would still be in breach of the contract. It would be right to punish the owner and tenant for their respective misdeeds, not say that because the owner did bad the bad action of the tenant should be forgiven or ignored.
- guythedudebro 5y ago
  I think the law says otherwise? Evidence collected illegally is (usually?) not valid. Regardless, I could imagine it might incentivize spying otherwise.
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    It's not valid for the state to collect evidence illegally. If it was then it would make sense to have any laws constraining how the state could gather evidence. In this case it's not the state that's spying, it's the landlord, and the landlord is constrained by the punishments for violating the law against spying. A slightly different spin on it, if the landlord witnessed a murder while illegally spying on his piano should his recording or testimony be admissible in court? I would say yes though again the landlord should face whatever spying penalties apply.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I think the law says otherwise? Evidence collected illegally is (usually?) not valid. Evidence collected by the state in violation of Constitutional protections relating to search and seizure rights of the defendant is generally (with, however, ever-widening exceptions) inadmissible in criminal trials. Otherwise, illegally-obtained may or may not be permitted; it quite often is, though presenting it opens one up to charges relating to the illegal act involved in gathering it.
- salgernon 5y ago
  What if the piano had a piece of tamper tape and the landlord saw it the next time he was doing work for the tenant. The students thought it was fishy, but there was no time line associated. (Or for that matter, the tenant may have gotten drunk and spouted off about it in the biergarten.)

narag 5y ago

The doctor was found guilty of murder, because he had overwhelming control of the situation. No idea what "felony murder rule" is but if it's in the anglo-saxon tradition, I doubt it's applicable. I can't remember what happened with the piano. IIRC, both cases happened in Germany and the piano one was long ago so cameras and mics were not a possibility then. Anyway the legal foundation in play there was if there's somehow a legitimate interest in the clause, not just a whim.

ALittleLight 5y ago
The felony murder rule is, if you commit a felony, and a person dies as a result of your crime, then you are guilty of murder. The classic example is the getaway driver in a bank robbery. If the bank robbers go in and shoot the security guard, a clerk or two, and a customer, and all you do as the getaway driver is drive the robbers away from the crime, you will still go to jail for murder even though you had nothing to do with pulling any triggers and may not have expected or wanted anyone to die. A less intuitive consequence of this is, if you are a bank robber, and the security guard shoots your fellow robber, and the other robber dies, then you are also guilty of murder because your felony (robbing the bank) led to the death of the other robber.
- narag 5y ago
  Yeah, I don't see that last thing working in my country. "Criminal organization" is a crime in itself so it's a different tool to apply tougher penalties. But, apart from that, the complicity rules have more strict requirements.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > "Criminal organization" is a crime in itself so it's a different tool to apply tougher penalties. This is also true in the United States, where it's called "racketeering".